Welcome to Lebanon: Graveyard of the Arrogant

[SilverLining]

I know there are quite a few Jews and even rabbis that are anti-Zionist. However, many of those still are Zionists. The media tells people that Zionism is the belief that ONLY Jews belong in Israel, and that's a lie. If someone believes Israel has a right to exist, they are Zionists. A lot of people are just misinformed. As for the Jews who actually are, it's no surprise. Jews are unique in the levels of self-hatred among them. Part of this is due to how prevalent Judaeophobia has been throughout history and the increasing levels of it in the media. Some of the most famous Jew-haters in history have actually been Jewish or had Jewish ancestry. Nonetheless, there's no need to play the "but I have a (insert group here) friend" card.

Most modern day Zionists have the same views as Herzl. There are a lot of people who would like you to believe otherwise, but most Jews in Israel want (and have always wanted) to live in peace with their Arab neighbors. Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. Muslims enjoy far more religious freedom in Israel than Christians or Jews do in any other country in the Middle East and are not treated as an outcast like they are in the USA and many Western countries. But like you said, reality is much more complicated. The truth is that Jews were not welcome. The vision of living side by side, in peace, was a one-sided desire.

There is evidence that many of the Palestinian refugees were not actually forced out, but left in support for the war of 1948. This was when Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria attacked Israel. People claim that original grievances date back to the 1948 expulsion, and that everything after that is a response to Israeli aggression, but then why did these five countries attack Israel before any Palestinians were expelled? Here are what some Arab newspapers had to say about the War of Independence:

‘The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem.’
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948

‘The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.’
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949

‘Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.’
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951

These were 5 armies who were extremely confident that they would win this battle, and urged Arab citizens to leave for a few days, so they wouldn't be caught in the crossfire during the attempted genocide. They weren't welcomed back, but neither were they welcome to become citizens in the surrounding Arab countries. There are a few reasons this is the case. The most important one being that the Palestinians serve as a political tool against Israel. The truth is that peace is not enough. It never was. The war will never be over until there is absolutely no Jewish presence in the Middle East. While the Palestinians could get justice in a two-state solution, Israel would still exist.

If you need further proof that this conflict is more about being Anti-Israel than Pro-Palestinian, look to the 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanese refugee camps. They have far less rights and worse conditions than the Palestinians in Gaza, but they are rarely condemned by Arab and western countries alike. They have no right to leave, no right to vote, no right to own property, no citizenship, they could not get jobs in 70 professions such as medicine, engineering, law, and teaching among others, which left menial jobs as the only viable employment options. This week, some restrictions have been lifted on the labor market, but they are still subject to regulations imposed on foreign workers. If you are born and raised in Lebanon, but to a Palestinian, you are still not a citizen, and are not considered Lebanese. You will not be afforded the same rights as other Lebanese despite never having stepped foot out of the country.

[mcZu]

I know there are quite a few Jews and even rabbis that are anti-Zionist. However, many of those still are Zionists. The media tells people that Zionism is the belief that ONLY Jews belong in Israel, and that's a lie. If someone believes Israel has a right to exist, they are Zionists. A lot of people are just misinformed. As for the Jews who actually are, it's no surprise. Jews are unique in the levels of self-hatred among them. Part of this is due to how prevalent Judaeophobia has been throughout history and the increasing levels of it in the media. Some of the most famous Jew-haters in history have actually been Jewish or had Jewish ancestry. Nonetheless, there's no need to play the "but I have a (insert group here) friend" card.

That still means that Zionism is in fact anti-semitic.
Definition of Zionism:

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

Whether the Jews deserved a land of their own or not, the fact remains that the conflict started when they wanted to reestablisch a Jewish homeland in Palestine, an area where certain people used to live, namely the Palestinians.

Most modern day Zionists have the same views as Herzl. There are a lot of people who would like you to believe otherwise, but most Jews in Israel want (and have always wanted) to live in peace with their Arab neighbors. Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. Muslims enjoy far more religious freedom in Israel than Christians or Jews do in any other country in the Middle East and are not treated as an outcast like they are in the USA and many Western countries. But like you said, reality is much more complicated. The truth is that Jews were not welcome. The vision of living side by side, in peace, was a one-sided desire.

I agree with your post up until the last sentence. I don't believe that it was one-sided. If it was presented in the right way both parties would have agreed. However, I don't know if this is 100% correct, it might have come across as a hostile act. Barging in and saying we're going to built a nation here, when you were living in that area for ages. It brings up questions on how the whole concept was presented before the state of Israel was etsablished in 1948. Things like: how did the people in that area react to the British Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration?

There is evidence that many of the Palestinian refugees were not actually forced out, but left in support for the war of 1948. This was when Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria attacked Israel. People claim that original grievances date back to the 1948 expulsion, and that everything after that is a response to Israeli aggression, but then why did these five countries attack Israel before any Palestinians were expelled? Here are what some Arab newspapers had to say about the War of Independence:

‘The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem.’
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948

‘The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.’
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949

‘Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.’
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951

Interesting, I'll have to do some research on that, though. Could you provide me with reliable sources?

These were 5 armies who were extremely confident that they would win this battle, and urged Arab citizens to leave for a few days, so they wouldn't be caught in the crossfire during the attempted genocide. They weren't welcomed back, but neither were they welcome to become citizens in the surrounding Arab countries. There are a few reasons this is the case. The most important one being that the Palestinians serve as a political tool against Israel. The truth is that peace is not enough. It never was. The war will never be over until there is absolutely no Jewish presence in the Middle East. While the Palestinians could get justice in a two-state solution, Israel would still exist.

If you need further proof that this conflict is more about being Anti-Israel than Pro-Palestinian, look to the 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanese refugee camps. They have far less rights and worse conditions than the Palestinians in Gaza, but they are rarely condemned by Arab and western countries alike. They have no right to leave, no right to vote, no right to own property, no citizenship, they could not get jobs in 70 professions such as medicine, engineering, law, and teaching among others, which left menial jobs as the only viable employment options. This week, some restrictions have been lifted on the labor market, but they are still subject to regulations imposed on foreign workers. If you are born and raised in Lebanon, but to a Palestinian, you are still not a citizen, and are not considered Lebanese. You will not be afforded the same rights as other Lebanese despite never having stepped foot out of the country.

The Arabic governments are as worse as the government of Israel in my eyes. Of course it's all just politics and a race for wealth and power. However, the poor victims that are dying are Palestinians. And the occasional deaths of Jews, of course. I never said that only Israel should be blamed, no, not at all. I said it's a complex issue, and I meant that. We can both point fingers at either the Arabs or the Jews, but at the end of day, we will be right back where we started. We both know that a lot of things count in this dispute, besides politics, religion plays a huge factor.

Eventhough the Palestinians aren't all Muslim, a lot of them are Christian, this dispute still has been heavily influenced by religion. According to Jewish scriptures it's their promised land. Muslim scriptures agree to a certain extent, however they also have a holy, religious, building and land in that area, in Jerusalam. On top of that greed and wealth is driving both parties (the Arabs and Jews), pride is driving them and, of course, a history. The irony in this is that they're both brother tribes that go way back to Abraham. Complexity at its finest.

[randomghost]

I stopped reading after it said Maronite Catholic were Israel's allies......
No we are not...

mayb ur family lol