The Bible and Christianity

[AbramIsaac]

Just to be clear, I have absolutely no interest in arguing the existence of God with anyone. And I agree that it is completely irrelevant to the original post. I just get very frustrated when people think they can "prove God" because I can not "disprove not God". Until you go through a 9th grade logic class, please do not think you understand the concept of 'proof'.

Well I've been a Christian the majority of my life and its only been recently I've been questioning my faith. See, since 1st grade I've just been told that God loves you and all the bullshit Christians feed you. And they say that everybodys God's children. But if that's true why is there a hell. Why would he send his children to hell?

The original author of this topic is confused about religious dogma. Like he says, why does religion feed their followers so much bullshit, so many lies, so much deception. My posts have been trying to answer that. All the deception is aimed at brainwashing its followers into thinking their thousands of years of murder, torture, persecution, racism, hatred etc. is justified. They need their followers to believe the Church is for the good of the people, because the Vatican has billions and billions of dollars in wealth. It is the richest organization in the planet, the city holds untold fortunes, and they want to keep them.

That is why you are being lied to. That is why your religion makes no sense. The Church is in place to convince you it is all holy and to trick you into becoming a devoted follower. And not question why they had to burn women alive for being witches, for 400 years.

- The Bomber

As long as we're clear. I am in agreement with everything you just said in that post.

I just know how these religious arguments go, and I'm sure you do as well. It's ever-circular, and no one changes their mind.

The debate of dogma, however, is quite valid to this thread, and I apologize if I came off as a dick. Dogma is a cancer on society, and the reason for every bad thing that religion has ever brought us. Since most organized religion IS dogma, people tend to despise it, once they see the pain it inflicts upon people.

[mrjizzbomber]

My grandmother was extremely Catholic. Dozens of candles in her room, crosses, pictures of Jesus, etc. My girlfriend is extremely Catholic, Church every Sunday, prayer, the whole thing. I know a lot of people who are religious for the "right" reasons.

Which is why I have no interest in arguing the existence of God. These people, believing there is some higher power, are causing no harm. Let them believe in God, Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, what should I care. They believe being religious means living a "good" life.

But the people who are actually running the Church ARE causing harm. They're taking advantages of these "good" followers. Pope after Pope is working to create Christian rule over the planet. So here is the problem I have...

The higher-ups in the religion (evil people) tell the worshipers (good people) that they have to believe everything, and if they don't do what they are told, they go to hell. The higher-ups get complete and total control over good people - my grandmother, my girlfriend - all slaves to the cult.

Now, we are many years removed from the true horrors that have arose from this situation, but don't think terrible things don't happen anymore.

- The Bomber

[GoodGirlsGetGutted]

The Catholic Church caused the Crusades, killing millions, destroying entire towns, leading to the rape and murder of women and children. Not to mention attacks directed towards Jews, Muslims, and anyone who is not Catholic.

The Catholic Church called for multiple Inquisitions, torturing and abusing hundreds of thousands, turning people against each others (forcing them to call out others to save themselves), and targeting Jews, Muslims and anyone expected to not be a full blown Catholic.

The Catholic Church ignited the Witch Hunts, which ignited hundreds of thousands of women and cast blame towards countless others.

The Catholic Church has vigilantly opposed contraception, which in Africa has contributed to the AIDS crisis.

Mother Teresa had millions of Indian girls working as slaves for her.

-------------------------------

Why has the Catholic Church done these terrible, heinous, despicable, murderous things? The Catholic Church is by far the richest organization on the planet. The Vatican protects untold riches, fueling a global organization. They use their money to brainwash the world into thinking they are spreading 'Gods' word. They have Churches across the globe preaching faith towards God, and they vigorously silence anyone who threatens them. They cover up scandals with remarkable ease, and have hundreds of millions of devoted followers to do the same.

Pope after pope has called for murder, torture, targeting of specific religious, races, ethnicities and sexes. The Pope is really the ultimate Dr. Evil.

-----------------------------------

I'll hedge my bets like this. There may be some form of higher power - or better put, an unexplainable phenomenon that has allowed the universe to develop as it has. But this phenomenon, when discovered, will be scientifically understandable and non contradicted. 'God', as every religion - particularly the Catholic Church - has put it is as real as Santa and the Easter Bunny. The entire world has been scammed, tricked, swindled and brainwashed.

And the reason? Money money money, the Catholic Church has more dirty money than the rest of the world combined.

- The Bomber

You make me so proud to be Catholic.

[chronic]

My grandmother was extremely Catholic. Dozens of candles in her room, crosses, pictures of Jesus, etc. My girlfriend is extremely Catholic, Church every Sunday, prayer, the whole thing. I know a lot of people who are religious for the "right" reasons.

Which is why I have no interest in arguing the existence of God. These people, believing there is some higher power, are causing no harm. Let them believe in God, Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, what should I care. They believe being religious means living a "good" life.

But the people who are actually running the Church ARE causing harm. They're taking advantages of these "good" followers. Pope after Pope is working to create Christian rule over the planet. So here is the problem I have...

The higher-ups in the religion (evil people) tell the worshipers (good people) that they have to believe everything, and if they don't do what they are told, they go to hell. The higher-ups get complete and total control over good people - my grandmother, my girlfriend - all slaves to the cult.

Now, we are many years removed from the true horrors that have arose from this situation, but don't think terrible things don't happen anymore.

- The Bomber

So your solution is simply to remove religion ? I said it earlier, what man does with religion is not the religion's fault but man's fault. I do agree with you but religion is not to blame it's like if you said Islam is to blame for terrorism, it's insane.

And Menzo, as a christian, what do you think of that? I want to know your opinion.

[mrjizzbomber]

Well I certainly don't think the teachings of Christ are anything people should be offended about. They offer peace and humanity. About the fact that if people across the world not following him go to Hell..hmm, I don't know. You can't really say it's their fault.

My overall answer is, I don't know. It sounds dumb and leaves you with little to work with, yes, but sometimes I find myself agreeing with it, other times I don't.

I believe Jesus Christ had the purest intentions. Obviously I don't have very much evidence to support it, but from what I gather his goal was to spread love, peace, etc.

- The Bomber

[mrjizzbomber]

So your solution is simply to remove religion ? I said it earlier, what man does with religion is not the religion's fault but man's fault. I do agree with you but religion is not to blame it's like if you said Islam is to blame for terrorism, it's insane.

And Menzo, as a christian, what do you think of that? I want to know your opinion.

Removing religion will not stop evil people from doing evil things. However, unveiling what people have done with religion in the past and present will hopefully stop them from taking advantage of good, but ignorant, people in the future.

Religion is simple an excuse for people to do evil. They would find other justifications if it were not "God".

- The Bomber

[mrjizzbomber]

The Pope to this day takes advantage of people's fear of God. Atheism threatening the Church's dominance in the Western world? Blame those heretics for something the people of the West actually care about:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... oryid=3882

Thats the Catholic Church not in 1200, not in 1500, in 2009. Hard to believe.

- The Bomber

[GoodGirlsGetGutted]

The Pope to this day takes advantage of people's fear of God. Atheism threatening the Church's dominance in the Western world? Blame those heretics for something the people of the West actually care about:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... oryid=3882

Thats the Catholic Church not in 1200, not in 1500, in 2009. Hard to believe.

- The Bomber

That's the way it should be.

You can't fuck with Catholics.

We'll have non believers killed.

[paradigmal]

The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

For you Bomber, in layman's terms- since i'm sure you don't want to scroll through my wall-o-text

I do believe in god but these words are not yours.

http://markshea.blogspot.com/2009/09/st ... -beeb.html

That was my fault for not using parentheses. However, I am a Thomist, so no matter what the case is, I will always revert to some sort of argument that is relatively similar to this, I just didn't feel like typing it out. Doing so would require way too much time and effort, more than i'd care to give "mr. bomber." Last resort response is "i'm not going to respond to it." That's because he cannot respond. If you read the outline of the argument, it basically says that in order for there to be motion in the universe, there has to be a first mover. That first mover has to be perfect. Don't kid yourself, you don't want to respond because you don't know how.
Good day


PS. In addition Mr jizz, your article does nothing to point out that the pope said anything derogatory against atheists or agnostics. The Catholic Church would do no such thing.

[chronic]

Alright then it's cool. I like what that guy wrote tho, it was interesting but I don't believe it will be enough to convince everyone and everyone has his own truth so I don't like to get into that debate of 'god existing or not'.

As Mr Blaise said ;
<<We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.>>

[paradigmal]

Alright then it's cool. I like what that guy wrote tho, it was interesting but I don't believe it will be enough to convince everyone and everyone has his own truth so I don't like to get into that debate of 'god existing or not'.

As Mr Blaise said ;
<<We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.>>

Understood. It's just that people spend a lot of time "disproving" God. So I use basic logic and reason to "prove" his existence, to myself. It's not so much just God, but a higher being. ie. First mover.

[Fa-Q]

if you believe in evolution you are a fool

I can disprove evolution in one statement

How can you go from reproducing asexually, which is what all one-celled organisms do, which is what evolutionists think we came from, to producing sexually.

[GoodGirlsGetGutted]

if you believe in evolution you are a fool

I can disprove evolution in one statement

How can you go from reproducing asexually, which is what all one-celled organisms do, which is what evolutionists think we came from, to producing sexually.

God made it happen.

[Epidemik]

watch the original zeitgeist http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

imo spirituality is all well and dandy, but organized religion just divides people

[mrjizzbomber]

Can I ask what you're trying to do? Debacle Catholicism? I didn't see anything about the Pope blaming atheists besides the title...the article just says how we can't treat this earth as if we made it, and that our responsibility is to keep it healthy for future generations.

Also, one post at a time...

The current Pope has denounced atheism many, many times and blamed atheists for just about all of the world's current problems. I just wanted to cite a source form a Catholic website (look at the website that first article came from) just to keep me nice and honest.

Heres another quote from the Pope, this one is a little more to the point:

"The denial of God distorts the freedom of the human person, yet it also devastates creation."

And yes, this quote was given in the context of the environmental issues our planet is facing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... copenhagen

So I use basic logic and reason to "prove" his existence, to myself. It's not so much just God, but a higher being. ie. First mover.

I don't have an interest in trying to disprove something which cannot be disproved.

However, your arguments revolve entirely around poor logic and flawed reason. You can NOT prove a positive just because I can't prove the negative. I could implicate every person on the planet of murder and get them a life sentence based on your logic.

It just pisses me off when people have no handle on logic and reason.

if you believe in evolution you are a fool

I can disprove evolution in one statement

How can you go from reproducing asexually, which is what all one-celled organisms do, which is what evolutionists think we came from, to producing sexually.

Again with people having no handle on the words 'prove' and 'disprove'! Where the hell did you guys get your definitions of proof from?

Anyway, your statement hits upon a topic of great interest to biologists and scientists, the transition from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. Theres a pretty decent grasp on the why (the benefits offered by sexual reproduction over asexual reproduction basically involve randomness in the gene pool and a greater ability to evolve via natural selection), a slight understanding on the how (there are many intermediate species either capable of both asexual and sexual reproduction, or only capable of asexual reproduction but who undergo some form of sexual-like ability, and very unsure of the when (as you might imagine).

However, this issue is a scientific issue, not a theological one. You can throw out hundreds of single line questions which science has yet to answer...

Remember, we are not all knowing beings. Uh... theres only one of those, right??

- The Bomber