Response to momentsgolden (on Religion)

[EminemBase]

lol, I stopped reading when you said that computers and cars wouldn't work if god existed. Real bulletproof logic Einstein.

Yes it is. Because for a supernatural, again SUPERNATURAL god to exist, our laws of nature would have to be wrong. Science would have to be wrong.

Because unless science is wrong and our understanding of how the universe works is wrong, no such god can exist inside those laws. That kind of god is by definition: supernatural aka contradictory to the laws of science. That is also why it IS a scientific question and cannot be treated 'separately' or escape logical debate as if its excused.

Now, we obviously know science is true from technology. Its proof is in example, its proof is in the fact I'm sat on a computer, that is working, typing right now. Science constructs technology, if it was wrong: technology would not work.

Technology does work, therefore it's right. We know that the fundamental laws are correct, and so we know a supernatural god, or ghosts or anything else which defies these laws: is not possible. Very bulletproof logic.

Technology is also an arbitrary example of the proof of science, to illustrate a point. You're taking a few specific technological items and the metaphor totally literally and missing the point. And, @ momentsgolden - I'll respond properly to your reply soon.

What's also hilarious is how people who believe in god don't consider the size of the Universe, and BILLIONS of other planets and galaxies and infinite expansion of everything. The fact they think they have a god which concerns him / itself specifically with human affairs: one species among MILLIONS, on ONE planet among BILLIONS shows how obviously mad-made the idea of god is.

Humans are self-centered and the fact they think an almighty creator of this... absolutely mind-blowing surrounding we call a Universe, of which we are a fucking SPEC, totally insignificant spec that's existed for a ridiculously short time... the fact they think the creator of all of this would concern his entire time and who's very existence itself is to cater to, punish and govern humans is absolutely absurd, silly, childish, and incredibly arrogant. Again, just illustrates how fucking obvious it is that it's a wishful human invention.

[WakeUpShow]

lol, I stopped reading when you said that computers and cars wouldn't work if god existed. Real bulletproof logic Einstein.

Yes it is. Because for a supernatural, again SUPERNATURAL god to exist, our laws of nature would have to be wrong. Science would have to be wrong.

Because unless science is wrong and our understanding of how the universe works is wrong, no such god can exist inside those laws. That kind of god is by definition: supernatural aka contradictory to the laws of science. That is also why it IS a scientific question and cannot be treated 'separately' or escape logical debate as if its excused.

Now, we obviously know science is true from technology. Its proof is in example, its proof is in the fact I'm sat on a computer, that is working, typing right now. Science constructs technology, if it was wrong: technology would not work.

Technology does work, therefore it's right. We know that the fundamental laws are correct, and so we know a supernatural god, or ghosts or anything else which defies these laws: is not possible. Very bulletproof logic.

Technology is also an arbitrary example of the proof of science, to illustrate a point. You're taking a few specific technological items and the metaphor totally literally and missing the point. And, @ momentsgolden - I'll respond properly to your reply soon.

What's also hilarious is how people who believe in god don't consider the size of the Universe, and BILLIONS of other planets and galaxies and infinite expansion of everything. The fact they think they have a god which concerns him / itself specifically with human affairs: one species among MILLIONS, on ONE planet among BILLIONS shows how obviously mad-made the idea of god is.

Humans are self-centered and the fact they think an almighty creator of this... absolutely mind-blowing surrounding we call a Universe, of which we are a fucking SPEC, totally insignificant spec that's existed for a ridiculously short time... the fact they think the creator of all of this would concern his entire time and who's very existence itself is to cater to, punish and govern humans is absolutely absurd, silly, childish, and incredibly arrogant. Again, just illustrates how fucking obvious it is that it's a wishful human invention.

You're completely ignoring the fact that God could make and govern these scientific laws thus being above them. Science and faith can exist in harmony, you need to get out of your square state of mind and start looking at things from different angles. If you get the time, watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=77024018179262526#. You'll find it interesting regardless of your stance on God.

[classthe_king]

Eminembase, did you forget that humans can only detect only 10% out of everything that exists? To say that are scientific laws at this point in our history is the end all be all is stupid. There could be many exceptions, or did you forget about e=mc^2.
The first line was a joke lol

[EminemBase]

You're completely ignoring the fact that God could make and govern these scientific laws thus being above them. Science and faith can exist in harmony, you need to get out of your square state of mind and start looking at things from different angles.

No I'm not ignoring that, you have absolutely no idea how long I've been debating this issue and the arguments that I've heard. And how old that argument is.

To say god is 'outside' of science is the oldest and lamest argument in the book. It does not work and it's a cop-out and a way of avoiding justification for your belief.

If you say god is outside of science, you can use that same idea to justify ANY belief you want. And if then, why not believe anything? would you believe me or take me seriously if I told you my skin is bullet proof? would you 'respect my belief'?

I mean honestly, if I REALLY, seriously thought that and was genuinely saying that was the case. I would presume you'd say I'm full of shit and that it's not possible? what if I said my belief was outside the laws of science, and therefore it's possible...

Would you accept that? would you say 'fair enough'. If the answer is no then don't expect me to give you that privilege with your belief or accept that I need to accept your totally impossible claim which cannot be proven or be real within reality. You expect special treatment for your belief, just because it's 'god'. Don't be such an arrogant hypocrite. Totally unaware you're so blindly, arrogantly hypocritical too when you expect such a special, unheard of treatment for your belief, that no other belief gets and which you'd probably give to no other belief, except that one (your one).

Science and faith CANNOT exist in harmony as they are a pure contradiction. Science is evidence based, and logical. Science justifies its claims with provable theories and experiment, where as faith is literally - believing something without evidence, just because you wish to think it's true.

Well fine, you can by all means do that. I couldn't care less what you believe. But unfortunately religion can't keep its mouth shut. Maybe you should stop, not literally 'you' but, 'hello religion' = stop indoctrinating children with your nonsense please. And Cosh, you only believe it because you were no doubt indoctrinated yes? oh don't tell me, it's your choice eh? that's why it's just a 'coincidence' that almost every devout person you can find believes the religion of their parents and which they were brought up on.

Which is proof as to why it's NOT the truth. As religion can only make children, who are literally bred to believe the words of adults, it's in our DNA - believe it. Once the belief is ingrained in your brain from a child, it's very hard to shake off as you've been told by adults that you trust, for your entire life thus far that it's the truth. So you internally cannot deny it and will do anything to defend it.

That 'feeling' you probably have inside which you think is 'faith' that you may sometimes grapple with, is your logical brain telling you that what you've been told is nonsense but the part which reinforces it, is the part which loves and trusts the adults that have told you it's true. So you feel offended and hurt if people tell you those people are liars. Which is the subconscious implication when I tell you what you believe is not true.

[WakeUpShow]

You're completely ignoring the fact that God could make and govern these scientific laws thus being above them. Science and faith can exist in harmony, you need to get out of your square state of mind and start looking at things from different angles.

No I'm not ignoring that, you have absolutely no idea how long I've been debating this issue and the arguments that I've heard. And how old that argument is.

To say god is 'outside' of science is the oldest and lamest argument in the book. It does not work and it's a cop-out and a way of avoiding justification for your belief.

If you say god is outside of science, you can use that same idea to justify ANY belief you want. And if then, why not believe anything? would you believe me or take me seriously if I told you my skin is bullet proof? would you 'respect my belief'?

I mean honestly, if I REALLY, seriously thought that and was genuinely saying that was the case. I would presume you'd say I'm full of shit and that it's not possible? what if I said my belief was outside the laws of science, and therefore it's possible...

Would you accept that? would you say 'fair enough'. If the answer is no then don't expect me to give you that privilege with your belief or accept that I need to accept your totally impossible claim which cannot be proven or be real within reality. You expect special treatment for your belief, just because it's 'god'. Don't be such an arrogant hypocrite. Totally unaware you're so blindly, arrogantly hypocritical too when you expect such a special, unheard of treatment for your belief, that no other belief gets and which you'd probably give to no other belief, except that one (your one).

Science and faith CANNOT exist in harmony as they are a pure contradiction. Science is evidence based, and logical. Science justifies its claims with provable theories and experiment, where as faith is literally - believing something without evidence, just because you wish to think it's true.

Well fine, you can by all means do that. I couldn't care less what you believe. But unfortunately religion can't keep its mouth shut. Maybe you should stop, not literally 'you' but, 'hello religion' = stop indoctrinating children with your nonsense please. And Cosh, you only believe it because you were no doubt indoctrinated yes? oh don't tell me, it's your choice eh? that's why it's just a 'coincidence' that almost every devout person you can find believes the religion of their parents and which they were brought up on.

Which is proof as to why it's NOT the truth. As religion can only make children, who are literally bred to believe the words of adults, it's in our DNA - believe it. Once the belief is ingrained in your brain from a child, it's very hard to shake off as you've been told by adults that you trust, for your entire life thus far that it's the truth. So you internally cannot deny it and will do anything to defend it.

That 'feeling' you probably have inside which you think is 'faith' that you may sometimes grapple with, is your logical brain telling you that what you've been told is nonsense but the part which reinforces it, is the part which loves and trusts the adults that have told you it's true. So you feel offended and hurt if people tell you those people are liars. Which is the subconscious implication when I tell you what you believe is not true.

lol, do you argue this way with people in real life? Attacking them, insulting them, belittling them? You made tons of great points but I'm not even going to argue back because I'm not in the mood for your childish name calling. It seems to me that you're the arrogant one. Not once did I insult you. I came into the thread cool-headed and you bust out in a tantrum upset over something. You better watch yourself when you argue in real life, you're gonna push people away by pushing your beliefs on them like a fool.

EDIT: This is where you come back and say, "Oh, you were afraid to argue with me cause I made such good points so you copped out! douchefuck (under your breath)" oh or "fool"

[EminemBase]

You're completely ignoring the fact that God could make and govern these scientific laws thus being above them. Science and faith can exist in harmony, you need to get out of your square state of mind and start looking at things from different angles.

No I'm not ignoring that, you have absolutely no idea how long I've been debating this issue and the arguments that I've heard. And how old that argument is.

To say god is 'outside' of science is the oldest and lamest argument in the book. It does not work and it's a cop-out and a way of avoiding justification for your belief.

If you say god is outside of science, you can use that same idea to justify ANY belief you want. And if then, why not believe anything? would you believe me or take me seriously if I told you my skin is bullet proof? would you 'respect my belief'?

I mean honestly, if I REALLY, seriously thought that and was genuinely saying that was the case. I would presume you'd say I'm full of shit and that it's not possible? what if I said my belief was outside the laws of science, and therefore it's possible...

Would you accept that? would you say 'fair enough'. If the answer is no then don't expect me to give you that privilege with your belief or accept that I need to accept your totally impossible claim which cannot be proven or be real within reality. You expect special treatment for your belief, just because it's 'god'. Don't be such an arrogant hypocrite. Totally unaware you're so blindly, arrogantly hypocritical too when you expect such a special, unheard of treatment for your belief, that no other belief gets and which you'd probably give to no other belief, except that one (your one).

Science and faith CANNOT exist in harmony as they are a pure contradiction. Science is evidence based, and logical. Science justifies its claims with provable theories and experiment, where as faith is literally - believing something without evidence, just because you wish to think it's true.

Well fine, you can by all means do that. I couldn't care less what you believe. But unfortunately religion can't keep its mouth shut. Maybe you should stop, not literally 'you' but, 'hello religion' = stop indoctrinating children with your nonsense please. And Cosh, you only believe it because you were no doubt indoctrinated yes? oh don't tell me, it's your choice eh? that's why it's just a 'coincidence' that almost every devout person you can find believes the religion of their parents and which they were brought up on.

Which is proof as to why it's NOT the truth. As religion can only make children, who are literally bred to believe the words of adults, it's in our DNA - believe it. Once the belief is ingrained in your brain from a child, it's very hard to shake off as you've been told by adults that you trust, for your entire life thus far that it's the truth. So you internally cannot deny it and will do anything to defend it.

That 'feeling' you probably have inside which you think is 'faith' that you may sometimes grapple with, is your logical brain telling you that what you've been told is nonsense but the part which reinforces it, is the part which loves and trusts the adults that have told you it's true. So you feel offended and hurt if people tell you those people are liars. Which is the subconscious implication when I tell you what you believe is not true.

lol, do you argue this way with people in real life? Attacking them, insulting them, belittling them? You made tons of great points but I'm not even going to argue back because I'm not in the mood for your childish name calling. It seems to me that you're the arrogant one. Not once did I insult you. I came into the thread cool-headed and you bust out in a tantrum upset over something. You better watch yourself when you argue in real life, you're gonna push people away by pushing your beliefs on them like a fool.

EDIT: This is where you come back and say, "Oh, you were afraid to argue with me cause I made such good points so you copped out! douchefuck (under your breath)" oh or "fool"

What the fuck are you talking about.

a) where did I insult you? calling you arrogant? that's not much of an insult is it. It's an observation on your belief, as it IS arrogant for you to treat every other belief BUT the one you happen to believe in differently and expect me to give your belief special treatment.

That IS arrogant by default. So yes, you are arrogant.

You probably felt I was insulting you more than I did because it's about religion. And again, people take everything with religion totally personally because they've been taught it by their parents so you feel I'm arguing against more than logical points. It's a different animal.

b) name-calling? I don't see any name-calling in my post. Calling you arrogant and then justifying why I think that, is not name-calling. You're making things up.

c) douchefuck? I don't speak like that and don't sound anything like your imitation of me. Belittling? no, I'm refuting your belief and arrogant assertions. YOU are the arrogant one, by default, religion is arrogant by default. You just don't realize it, as you view it from a different perspective constantly and get told it's holy, wonderful and pure. Grow up.

Almost the entirety of my post is just totally dealing with the argument at hand. I rarely get personal in it, all you've done is proven my last point for me. You've proven it by the fact you've taken everything personally and finished reading the post feeling like you'd been 'personally attacked'. So don't act like all I did was beat around the bush and use name-calling, as that's a lie. I don't do that.

Any religious person I've ever debated has always felt this. And I've seen people debating religion where the person on 'the atheist side' is constantly accused of 'attacking' and being militant etc. when they aren't at all. And all they ever do is use logic to justify what they're saying. If we were talking about anything else you'd see everything I said as fairly mild, normal, logical debate. But because it's religion and YOUR belief, you feel it's a gigantic personal attack and feel 'offended'. So so silly.

[momentsgolden]

Any religious person I've ever debated has always felt this. And I've seen people debating religion where the person on 'the atheist side' is constantly accused of 'attacking' and being militant etc. when they aren't at all. And all they ever do is use logic to justify what they're saying. If we were talking about anything else you'd see everything I said as fairly mild, normal, logical debate. But because it's religion and YOUR belief, you feel it's a gigantic personal attack and feel 'offended'. So so silly.

Actually, you might not believe you do so but thats how it comes out sometimes. I mean, how does the fact that Cosh is "arrogant" (whether true or not) help your case or discredits his?

[EminemBase]

Any religious person I've ever debated has always felt this. And I've seen people debating religion where the person on 'the atheist side' is constantly accused of 'attacking' and being militant etc. when they aren't at all. And all they ever do is use logic to justify what they're saying. If we were talking about anything else you'd see everything I said as fairly mild, normal, logical debate. But because it's religion and YOUR belief, you feel it's a gigantic personal attack and feel 'offended'. So so silly.

Actually, you might not believe you do so but thats how it comes out sometimes. I mean, how does the fact that Cosh is "arrogant" (whether true or not) help your case or discredits his?

Because it's a totally valid point to raise in respects to the belief itself. It's not a personal slant, of course it IS personal in the fact I'm calling HIM arrogant, but I'm calling him arrogant FOR the belief so to dismiss it or view it as name-calling or irrelevant to the argument is incorrect.

I said the belief itself and the psychology, and implications surrounding the belief are arrogant and JUSTIFIED it, and then said that is why I think he's arrogant. So that's how it discredits him, as it's a totally valid aspect of the conversation. Something that needs to be addressed.

So just because Cosh can't appreciate the reasoning evident to anybody who is willing to understand the logic and justification, doesn't mean I am what he says he is. I only care about the argument, and points, and logic. And calling him arrogant, for believing what he does and everything else I justified, is relevant and a case for my argument. Not a spurious insult.

[WakeUpShow]

Any religious person I've ever debated has always felt this. And I've seen people debating religion where the person on 'the atheist side' is constantly accused of 'attacking' and being militant etc. when they aren't at all. And all they ever do is use logic to justify what they're saying. If we were talking about anything else you'd see everything I said as fairly mild, normal, logical debate. But because it's religion and YOUR belief, you feel it's a gigantic personal attack and feel 'offended'. So so silly.

Actually, you might not believe you do so but thats how it comes out sometimes. I mean, how does the fact that Cosh is "arrogant" (whether true or not) help your case or discredits his?

Because it's a totally valid point to raise in respects to the belief itself. It's not a personal slant, of course it IS personal in the fact I'm calling HIM arrogant, but I'm calling him arrogant FOR the belief so to dismiss it or view it as name-calling or irrelevant to the argument is incorrect.

I said the belief itself and the psychology, and implications surrounding the belief are arrogant and JUSTIFIED it, and then said that is why I think he's arrogant. So that's how it discredits him, as it's a totally valid aspect of the conversation. Something that needs to be addressed.

So just because Cosh can't appreciate the reasoning evident to anybody who is willing to understand the logic and justification, doesn't mean I am what he says he is. I only care about the argument, and points, and logic. And calling him arrogant, for believing what he does and everything else I justified, is relevant and a case for my argument. Not a spurious insult.

[WakeUpShow]

[quote="momentsgoldenActually, you might not believe you do so but thats how it comes out sometimes. I mean, how does the fact that Cosh is "arrogant" (whether true or not) help your case or discredits his?

Because it's a totally valid point to raise in respects to the belief itself. It's not a personal slant, of course it IS personal in the fact I'm calling HIM arrogant, but I'm calling him arrogant FOR the belief so to dismiss it or view it as name-calling or irrelevant to the argument is incorrect.

I said the belief itself and the psychology, and implications surrounding the belief are arrogant and JUSTIFIED it, and then said that is why I think he's arrogant. So that's how it discredits him, as it's a totally valid aspect of the conversation. Something that needs to be addressed.

So just because Cosh can't appreciate the reasoning evident to anybody who is willing to understand the logic and justification, doesn't mean I am what he says he is. I only care about the argument, and points, and logic. And calling him arrogant, for believing what he does and everything else I justified, is relevant and a case for my argument. Not a spurious insult.

P.S. LOL at you calling anyone arrogant, you prick. You look down on everyone. I out.

[classthe_king]

That's what I thought.

[EminemBase]

[quote="momentsgoldenActually, you might not believe you do so but thats how it comes out sometimes. I mean, how does the fact that Cosh is "arrogant" (whether true or not) help your case or discredits his?

Because it's a totally valid point to raise in respects to the belief itself. It's not a personal slant, of course it IS personal in the fact I'm calling HIM arrogant, but I'm calling him arrogant FOR the belief so to dismiss it or view it as name-calling or irrelevant to the argument is incorrect.

I said the belief itself and the psychology, and implications surrounding the belief are arrogant and JUSTIFIED it, and then said that is why I think he's arrogant. So that's how it discredits him, as it's a totally valid aspect of the conversation. Something that needs to be addressed.

So just because Cosh can't appreciate the reasoning evident to anybody who is willing to understand the logic and justification, doesn't mean I am what he says he is. I only care about the argument, and points, and logic. And calling him arrogant, for believing what he does and everything else I justified, is relevant and a case for my argument. Not a spurious insult.

P.S. LOL at you calling anyone arrogant, you prick. You look down on everyone. I out.

How do I 'look down' on every one? that's just your perception because I don't type / speak like a 10 year old with brain damage on MSN.

I don't look down on everyone - I'm from a piece of shit urban city, where I associate with the lowest class of people (I am working class myself) and am surrounded by a mix of race and personalities of many extremes. People who look down on people in terms of class or in any sense, do not survive well in this environment. Growing up I was liked and the funny one of the group. How people communicate on a forum, especially when debating - does not neccesarily define or sum up their personality.

If you're talking shit I'll call you out on it, if I think what you're saying is untrue, I'll call you out on it. I'm rational, but that's not the same as looking down on people. Looking down on people is a smug person who thinks they're automatically of a better class than people. I don't think like that and can't (as I'm logical) as nobody can help the way they are born, or where they are born. So I can't judge or dislike people for aspects of which they have no control. That's illogical.

Being logical is not looking down on people. Arguing a point or discussing things at length is not looking down on people. You took a mild observation as a deep personal jab because it was related to religion, and you're obviously a very sensitive little bitch.

If I looked down on people, I'd constantly correct your grammar as one example. That's what people who look down on people do. Where as, that doesn't matter to me. All that matters is 'can I understand what the person means'. If I can understand what you mean, regardless of how you communicate it, then I can process it and respond. That's the only logic needed in communication and grammar perfection is arbitrary. I just stress it in my own writing as I'm obsessive and a perfectionist by default, it's just how I think. But I place no value on it in this environment.

It only matters in publication or, thesis or something which is to be mass read and understood on a broad scale. As then, there's a logic to abiding by universal language rules of structure and presentation. But, on a one on one forum debate, who cares.

So, that's your claim out the window. Next...

You have no idea how I am in real life you retard. But we're debating something. And again, I said it's arrogant to believe what you believe, and expect everyone who does not to believe it to give it special treatment you moron.

And if you don't think that's true, PROVE ME WRONG. Go ahead, I'm waiting... (tick toc...)

As that's precisely what you and other religious people do. You've proven you do that by saying god is outside of science and insisting it's personal and I should respect it. Where as like I said in another example, you do not extend that respect or do the same for other ridiculous claims or beliefs. Yet you expect non-believers of YOUR belief, to do it specifically and only for YOUR belief.

That couldn't be more arrogant. So yes, you are arrogant but are too dumb to realize you are arrogant for thinking that way, because you're a fucking retard. Now log off the forum, hang your head in shame and go apologize to your mother for being born, as you're damaged produce.

[Almostlity]

tl;dr

[momentsgolden]

tl;dr

What does that mean btw?

Oh,

Thread has turned out just the way I imagined it to be.

Not ALWAYS, we distracted from the point at hand. Check through this particular subsection, religion can be debated as Base wants it. In a logical, respectful manner.

[EminemBase]

^ I will still respond to your post btw. I've just been putting off as it's so huge lmao. And that means my response is going to be INSANELY huge, as always, and it's draining.

But yes, let's just keep it impersonal, all about the points and calm.