Last Verse of "Going Through Changes"...

[One Mic]

I wish Eminem would make a lot more songs with emotional content.....but not about his own personal life. We've heard enough of that to last us a lifetime.

Stuff similiar to 'MOSH'.

Commentate on what is going on out there in the world....it's a big place.

[JakeBlack]

I wish Eminem would make a lot more songs with emotional content.....but not about his own personal life. We've heard enough of that to last us a lifetime.

Stuff similiar to 'MOSH'.

Commentate on what is going on out there in the world....it's a big place.

So what do you think of the last verse?

[EminemBase]

I wish Eminem would make a lot more songs with emotional content.....but not about his own personal life. We've heard enough of that to last us a lifetime.

Stuff similiar to 'MOSH'.

Commentate on what is going on out there in the world....it's a big place.

Yes, now that I wouldn't mind at all.

I thought "Mosh" was a sign of real growth and like one critic said, maybe he's finally beginning to look OUTWARD instead of inward.

In "Mosh"... aside from the first verse (which is often irrelevant as he begins by following his pen then never re-writes it, clearly) the song is totally focused on an issue and he largely leaves himself out of it. And he shines, I love "Mosh".

There's many issues, not even political, but creative concepts he could frame in an emotional context, or some real world idea or something. There's so many possibilities. Just rapping about his own life, CONSTANTLY is such a fucking waste.

He's one of the most self-obsessed artists in history.

[cityfan31]

What do you think about the Steve Berman skit in Relapse when he goes:

'Do I really need to hear it? Let me guess, another album about poor me, I'm so famous it's ruined my rich little life and I'm such a tortured artist. Let me make music about it and my tragic love life, am I on to something here?'

One album later, he's talking about these exact matters on GTC, Space Bound, 25 to life....

It's interesting to see how he changed from wanting to 'spaz out' to being 'serious' to now being...somewhere in the middle.

[EminemBase]

^ I think he's just letting people know he's self-aware.

But it doesn't mean those issues don't still exist and aren't real sources of inspiration or genuine lyricism for him as an artist. He's just aware that he always talks about them so wants to let the listener know he's not oblivious to it.

Plus, just to take the piss out of himself.

He does it a lot. Like on "My Mom" 'I know you're probably tired of hearing about my mom, oooh-hooo, woooah-hooo'. Also does it on "Hailie's Song" by announcing he can't sing lmao, just has to let you know he knows he's not a great singer, to cover his back.

And he does it at the end of "Beautiful" when he says 'even if it sounds corny'. Knowing it does. Yet says it anyway. And in "You're Never Over" when he says 'excuse the corny metaphor'... and yet again, still says it. As if announcing he knows it's corny justifies it or makes it better. Why not just write a better, non-corny line lmao.

In respects to the skit though, I think it's more than that and I think the entire reason he took the piss out of his addiction on Relapse and was so abstract was, well, he said it himself when he came back - he didn't want it to be all about him and self-loathing etc. that's the exact reason Relapse is like it is and why that skit is there probably.

With Recovery he bowed to the pressure. He knew that was the obvious route that commercial fans probably wanted but tried to go a different way with Relapse. And told people why it wasn't what they expected. But when that didn't work, he took the safe route instead of sticking to his guns.

It's so obvious it was a plan b from the start with the inclusion of "Beautiful".

I think all along in his head he was thinking...
- Put "Beautiful" on Relapse as a back-up / safety track
- If they respond well to Relapse, put out Relapse 2
- If they respond badly to Relapse but well to "Beautiful", make music like "Beautiful"

And what's Recovery? music like "Beautiful".

[cityfan31]

Do you think there is any aspect of him that genuinely thought 'OK, enough is enough with the accents' because you seem to think he definitely wanted to carry on with his Relapse direction but bowed to pressure.

I think Paul said that Relapse was for his core fans whereas Recovery was for a wider audience - he knew that his loyal fans would appreciate almost anything - but the wider world was seeing his weird new style and just going

I think he really wanted to be back on top of the world. He probably thought that he wouldn't do that with Relapse 2 and I think he was right. He's said all along it was about respect and I think Recovery got him more of that than Relapse.

Bad Meets Evil was a really interesting side-project, almost like he knows he's established himself back at the top now so could go mental and try new things. The next album will be the first time where there's almost nothing to react to (Relapse - his comeback and Recovery - his response to Relapse criticism).

[EminemBase]

^ No I don't think he thought 'enough with the accents'.

I think that he takes his fans' reactions seriously, even though he said he was not gonna give a fuck what ANYBODY said and just do the music he wanted to do. But then as soon as he got a mixed reception, he couldn't handle the criticism like he thought.

I also think part of it was, I think he probably read critics' reviews and saw them saying he's just trying lame shock tactics and has no substance etc. so probably got pissed off at that ("On Fire") and wanted to prove them wrong. AS WELL as probably wanting to prove cocky critics wrong implying he was a has-been for not producing major singles. Despite the fact the fucking thing sold 600k in its 1st week lmao.

So I do imagine part of it was answering those people, and wanting to create a huge 'global' album that was massive, not only to prove them wrong but to prove to himself he could create an album that could connect on that level. I do feel there was some genuine want in... wanting to create 'bigger' music. I can definitely see what he was trying with like "Space Bound" and "Cinderella Man". Definitely trying to create 'big' classics, and which are on a higher plane musically.

But no I don't think that he was sick of the accents or the Relapse material outside of the fans' reaction. Hence why he keeps back-peddling lately and saying he thinks Relapse was good and he keeps ever so slightly giving it more credit.

And no contradiction looks so strange and glaring as when he opens with "3 a.m.", a track from Relapse and then performs "Cinderella Man" and says Relapse is in his trash lmao. That just looks bizarre.

Also, there was a post made on some forum WELL before Recovery came out, like... Nov 2010, you could even go back and find it, the guy was claiming to be some insider or something and anyway... he said way back then, we're talking... eight months before Recovery: he said that Interscope were not happy with Relapse due to it not appealing to the black demographic, but they knew white kids / Eminem fans would just buy anything he put out.

Which sounds far-fetched for them to be like that but then he said that Recovery would be chock-full of emotion and singing as that appeals to a wider audience. And that it was a compromise and Eminem was forced to do that. Or heavily influenced anyway. And, unless that's one hell of a lucky fucking guess, that's gotta be true.

As nobody in November of 2010 (may of even been earlier) was expecting Recovery, and he gave even more specific details which validated it I think. So that just makes me very uncomfortable, and Mr. Porter even addressed it and said Interscope didn't interfere, he very abrasively stated it but then when asked again he was a lot more ambiguous and went "uh, well you know they make suggestions". Yeah probably 'suggestions' like 'change the album, or it's not coming out' cough.

Think about it, think about how sharp and with it he is in most regards. He's very intelligent and more-so than he lets on. He openly said he was banging his head against a wall trying to figure out how to come back... and 50 said he wasn't gonna put anything out until it was his favourite shit ever. So, when he hit upon that Relapse material, I think he fucking LOVED it and you can hear it in the music, he lost himself in it, it's total indulgence.

Hence why he made about three albums worth of it. You don't make that much of something you think you're gonna grow tired of. You seriously think he made three albums of it, thought it through that long, had a second planned then practically overnight decided it was all wrong? I don't think so. Do you think it's a coincidence his decision to change the material came directly after the heavy focus on the backlash to the album itself.

I think there were many things that made him change. But mostly, I think people around him were telling him what he should do, and saying fans want emotional content etc. plus the fact he knew "Beautiful" connected with people AND I think Interscope were predicting a flop and even bigger critical failure with Relapse 2 due to the fact it was probably nearly exactly the same. But even more extreme. So they probably thought well if they don't like 1, they DEFINITELY won't like 2.

Either way, it's quite obvious that he was influenced... from various angles into changing his material and essentially, compromising. For the sake of fans that don't share his fucking taste anyway, hence not liking the material he liked. So why cater to people who aren't like-minded? that's retarded. And any artist should only create art for themselves.

Recovery is a clear exploitation of his addiction years, probably largely influenced by Jimmy (probably jacking off over all the cash it made right now) as, he already talked about the entire addiction AT LENGTH when he fucking came back in 2009. And he divulged it all on Relapse in various ways, and summed it all up in "Deja Vu". And then in 2010... two fucking years sober, after he's already told the story, he's using it like it's just happened and suddenly all self-serious and nostalgic and somber about it lmao? it was such an act.

I like Recovery, but shame on Em for compromising. Look at the producers too, all the hottest producers out right now, that's all they got. And Em clearly tried adapting by being Jay and Wayne-esque. Recovery is very influenced by Blueprint 3, in style and sound. Pop hooks over clashy trendy beats, full of self-appraisal and bravado. If you look throughout Em's career you can see spots where he uses Jay as like a guiding tool for what will work or not. And Recovery is BP3 guided for sure.

I've never seen Em compromise like that before and I lost some respect for him. Regardless of how good some of the music turned out.

[cityfan31]

^That's one way of looking at things.

I think there's another perspective you can have.

When Relapse came out it divided everyone - even those in on this forum, his 'harcore' fans - were split down the middle. Myself, I was bemused when We Made You came out, confused when 3AM came out and I remember being overjoyed when Insane leaked because it was undeniably 'Eminem'. Over time I learned to love and appreciate the album as I realised that it being different didn't make it bad.

Lets remember that the songs that stood out for the majority on Relapse were Deja Vu, Beautiful and Underground. Why? Because the songs addressed some real issues, they had poignance and in Underground's case, it had his old sound.

Lets also remember the reception that Forever got, followed by Drop The World. Those were almost unanimously seen as a huge step in the right direction.

So at this point, Em had a decision to make. Carry on, release Relapse 2 as he had anticipated or try and see if there was another album he could make. For me, his motives were an acceptance that while Relapse had its place, Relapse 2 would have been overkill. He HAD done the accents to death. He also wanted to prove to himself, and the critics that he could make a hit record, that he could climb back to the top and finally, that he could make music that you'd want to play 1000 times over.

Songs like GTC, Not Afraid (corny or not), 25 to life, Cindarella Man and Space Bound have something about them that elevates them. Yes, you might love songs on Relapse for their technical skill and for the beats, but Em put it like this: once you've heard 3AM once, you've got the joke.

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

[Amaranthine]

^That's one way of looking at things.

I think there's another perspective you can have.

When Relapse came out it divided everyone - even those in on this forum, his 'harcore' fans - were split down the middle. Myself, I was bemused when We Made You came out, confused when 3AM came out and I remember being overjoyed when Insane leaked because it was undeniably 'Eminem'. Over time I learned to love and appreciate the album as I realised that it being different didn't make it bad.

Lets remember that the songs that stood out for the majority on Relapse were Deja Vu, Beautiful and Underground. Why? Because the songs addressed some real issues, they had poignance and in Underground's case, it had his old sound.

Lets also remember the reception that Forever got, followed by Drop The World. Those were almost unanimously seen as a huge step in the right direction.

So at this point, Em had a decision to make. Carry on, release Relapse 2 as he had anticipated or try and see if there was another album he could make. For me, his motives were an acceptance that while Relapse had its place, Relapse 2 would have been overkill. He HAD done the accents to death. He also wanted to prove to himself, and the critics that he could make a hit record, that he could climb back to the top and finally, that he could make music that you'd want to play 1000 times over.

Songs like GTC, Not Afraid (corny or not), 25 to life, Cindarella Man and Space Bound have something about them that elevates them. Yes, you might love songs on Relapse for their technical skill and for the beats, but Em put it like this: once you've heard 3AM once, you've got the joke.

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

100% agreed, and you said it much better than I could.

[Graphic]

Interesting discussion. EminemBase, I genuinely enjoy reading almost everything you post.

[JakeBlack]

^That's one way of looking at things.

I think there's another perspective you can have.

When Relapse came out it divided everyone - even those in on this forum, his 'harcore' fans - were split down the middle. Myself, I was bemused when We Made You came out, confused when 3AM came out and I remember being overjoyed when Insane leaked because it was undeniably 'Eminem'. Over time I learned to love and appreciate the album as I realised that it being different didn't make it bad.

Lets remember that the songs that stood out for the majority on Relapse were Deja Vu, Beautiful and Underground. Why? Because the songs addressed some real issues, they had poignance and in Underground's case, it had his old sound.

Lets also remember the reception that Forever got, followed by Drop The World. Those were almost unanimously seen as a huge step in the right direction.

So at this point, Em had a decision to make. Carry on, release Relapse 2 as he had anticipated or try and see if there was another album he could make. For me, his motives were an acceptance that while Relapse had its place, Relapse 2 would have been overkill. He HAD done the accents to death. He also wanted to prove to himself, and the critics that he could make a hit record, that he could climb back to the top and finally, that he could make music that you'd want to play 1000 times over.

Songs like GTC, Not Afraid (corny or not), 25 to life, Cindarella Man and Space Bound have something about them that elevates them. Yes, you might love songs on Relapse for their technical skill and for the beats, but Em put it like this: once you've heard 3AM once, you've got the joke.

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

[JustEnjoytheMusic]

^That's one way of looking at things.

I think there's another perspective you can have.

When Relapse came out it divided everyone - even those in on this forum, his 'harcore' fans - were split down the middle. Myself, I was bemused when We Made You came out, confused when 3AM came out and I remember being overjoyed when Insane leaked because it was undeniably 'Eminem'. Over time I learned to love and appreciate the album as I realised that it being different didn't make it bad.

Lets remember that the songs that stood out for the majority on Relapse were Deja Vu, Beautiful and Underground. Why? Because the songs addressed some real issues, they had poignance and in Underground's case, it had his old sound.

Lets also remember the reception that Forever got, followed by Drop The World. Those were almost unanimously seen as a huge step in the right direction.

So at this point, Em had a decision to make. Carry on, release Relapse 2 as he had anticipated or try and see if there was another album he could make. For me, his motives were an acceptance that while Relapse had its place, Relapse 2 would have been overkill. He HAD done the accents to death. He also wanted to prove to himself, and the critics that he could make a hit record, that he could climb back to the top and finally, that he could make music that you'd want to play 1000 times over.

Songs like GTC, Not Afraid (corny or not), 25 to life, Cindarella Man and Space Bound have something about them that elevates them. Yes, you might love songs on Relapse for their technical skill and for the beats, but Em put it like this: once you've heard 3AM once, you've got the joke.

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

Congrats on reasoning so well. I second Amaranthine: I never could have expressed this so well.

This discussion is very interesting. Thanks to all who contributed to it.

[Shady-Yo]

What a CHANGE! Listen to "Kim" then the last verse of GTC.

[Innovation]

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

Exactly.

[Blu]

^That's one way of looking at things.

I think there's another perspective you can have.

When Relapse came out it divided everyone - even those in on this forum, his 'harcore' fans - were split down the middle. Myself, I was bemused when We Made You came out, confused when 3AM came out and I remember being overjoyed when Insane leaked because it was undeniably 'Eminem'. Over time I learned to love and appreciate the album as I realised that it being different didn't make it bad.

Lets remember that the songs that stood out for the majority on Relapse were Deja Vu, Beautiful and Underground. Why? Because the songs addressed some real issues, they had poignance and in Underground's case, it had his old sound.

Lets also remember the reception that Forever got, followed by Drop The World. Those were almost unanimously seen as a huge step in the right direction.

So at this point, Em had a decision to make. Carry on, release Relapse 2 as he had anticipated or try and see if there was another album he could make. For me, his motives were an acceptance that while Relapse had its place, Relapse 2 would have been overkill. He HAD done the accents to death. He also wanted to prove to himself, and the critics that he could make a hit record, that he could climb back to the top and finally, that he could make music that you'd want to play 1000 times over.

Songs like GTC, Not Afraid (corny or not), 25 to life, Cindarella Man and Space Bound have something about them that elevates them. Yes, you might love songs on Relapse for their technical skill and for the beats, but Em put it like this: once you've heard 3AM once, you've got the joke.

I don't see him listening to his fans as a cowardly compromise of his principles, I see that as a strength and just him developing as an artist. I don't buy this pressure from Interscope either on the basis of that blatantly obvious prediction. Eminem is a big enough artist to not have to withstand that kind of pressure. Even if there was input from Interscope, the result was a brilliant album that brings so much more to the table than Relapse 2 would have (as just an extension on Relapse).

So I say to you, don't lose respect for Em for simply trying to give the fans and the world the album they were screaming out for. And don't tell me that Em made music he didn't like on Recovery because he showed so much hunger and passion that I don't believe is fake.

Post is so last year.. but it is extremely well thought out.