441Mania Best Music Album 1996-2011 #2?

[SliK]

Agree with MBDTF. That album IS this Decade's MMLP. I don't know about you but around here EVERYONE has that shit and I honestly believe it had just as big an impact as MMLP. Not insofar as controversy but that album appealed to everyone and the production is the best I have heard on any album. MMLP is my favorite album of all time and I'm not saying it's better than MMLP. If the blueprint gets so much praise for it's production, MBDTF should too. That album was just as bold and daring as MMLP but for different reasons. Kanye is a true artist with immense talent and I think he deserves this for creating that masterpiece.

As far as Eminem,I'm very happy to see his best work rated so highly, though I don't agree with the entire list.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

@CREAM

they aint no fucking need for us to debate though,its like kicking a dry wall.

i was just joking about the shit anyway,i dont give a fuck if you think any orange dog shit album is produced better than any Em album,i was just fuckinwitchu!

plus its almost 3am,debating stops at 11pm my nikka,whatchuon? syrup,painkillers,sigs,weed,henny,vodka?

been a long time since i listen to BME,bout to crank dat before bed!

[Devil'sAdvocate]

k.

its 3 am,and im bout to have rice with sheep meat,talk about motherfucking SWAG!

[EminemBase]

Agree with MBDTF. That album IS this Decade's MMLP. I don't know about you but around here EVERYONE has that shit and I honestly believe it had just as big an impact as MMLP. Not insofar as controversy but that album appealed to everyone and the production is the best I have heard on any album. MMLP is my favorite album of all time and I'm not saying it's better than MMLP. If the blueprint gets so much praise for it's production, MBDTF should too. That album was just as bold and daring as MMLP but for different reasons. Kanye is a true artist with immense talent and I think he deserves this for creating that masterpiece.

As far as Eminem,I'm very happy to see his best work rated so highly, though I don't agree with the entire list.

Just as much impact? NOT-EVEN-CLOSE In ANY sense.

The Marshall Mathers LP was a revolutionary album, and the voice of generation. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is a self-indulgent artistic project. They're not comparable in any sense. You think Kanye rapping about his nonsensical imagined racism and choking South Park writers with a fish-stick is as important or has had as much effect as Eminem turning the world on its fucking head!?

It's not just about controversy. Musically, yes, the album is amazing. Lyrically it's pretty good, great in spots. But it's just a few nice concepts and a nice witty line here or there. Not a consistent onslaught of lyrcial genius from top to bottom!

Kanye isn't half the lyricist Em is, his thoughts aren't close to as interesting or innovative in any sense at all. I'm a Kanye fan but the delusion about this album is amazing. It is most definitely not the MMLP of this decade.

MMLP is a giant, purposeful contradiction. It's got valid social commentary, hilarious self-deprecation, dismantlement of pop culture, ingeniously imaginative cartoonish violence and descriptive writing, a totally infectious bounce and rhtyhm on almost every track, total consistency, it's totally in character and is an absolutely amazing concept album...

It also houses "Stan", now one of the most legendary hip hop tracks of all time, totally incredible storytelling and an answer to critics. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy does not house any tracks that are or will become absolutely legendary hip hop tracks in that sense. All the tracks are very good but they're too self-contained to be as big or as important as anything from MMLP.

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy on the other hand is just a slew of verses concerning black power, made up racism and reaches, twitter, south park, women.. and yeah, I'm not insulting Kanye here as I think he's underrated as lyricist. But his lyrics just... it's not a comparison. Do you see shcolars and serious writers dissecting Kanye's lyrics right now? lmao, no.

People call him a genius due to his production and the whole package. But great production does not put that album on the same pedestal as MMLP. As much as Kanye tries and as visual as he is, none of his albums are as good art as MMLP. None as clever, none as infectious, none as witty, none as innovative. Kanye's great due to being able to do so much, but that album is not near fucking MMLP.

I grew up with MMLP so know the experience. Everybody I knew had it, it was so influential and relevant. MBDTF isn't that. Any album would be hard pressed to be that these days anyway due to the amount of available music and media from every direction. So ONE album capturing a genre or minds like albums could back then I'd say is a lot harder. Either way, MBDTF hasn't captured minds in THAT way, or tore rap inside out.

[Graphic]

^ Explained perfectly.

[popsomphills]

I'm a big Elliott Smith fan, so pretty cool to see him get honorable mention twice.

Why no SSLP? I liked it better than TES.

[EmIsKingOfHipHop]

a lot of people are obviously going to disagree with this list..

[SliK]

Maybe not where you're from, but where I'm from MBDTF had a far bigger impact than MMLP. MBDTF is an instant classic and beyond MMLP in a lot of ways. Production, holy shit, out of
This fucking world. Grandure, this was his last 4 albums rolled into a fucking powerhouse. Emotion, absolutely. Runaway and Blame Game are two of the realest songs I've heard in my life. No bullshit.

MMLP was essentially a big "Fuck you. Suck my dick. Faggot" album and it is as powerful as it is controversial. Lyrically on point and irony that cut popular culture to pieces. I'm not disagreeing with it being placed at number 2. In fact I'm ecstatic, this is my favorite album of all time for exactly the reasons you listed above.

I think it's stupid to say one is better than the other. When MMLP dropped I was a young angry white male that had been shit on my whole life and to hear that album, and the rage and Emotion of it... Holy shit. I was in awe. The Way I Am

Now I'm 23 and seemingly in the same emotional position as Kanye. Under scrutiny, in and out of love, hurting people an being hurt by people andsubsequently dealing with those issues and emotions.

It's like comparing The Godfather to Shawshank. Two completely undeniable classics that achieve exactly what they were going for, and leave the viewer utterly blown away. But everyone has different tastes and there are going to be aspects of one that people will relate to over the other, and vise versa.

[EminemBase]

^ Well, to say which is 'better' as you'd at least have to say better in what way, and they have different aims so it doesn't really make sense.

Though I think, The Marshall Mathers LP is a far more important piece of art. As it examines life outside of the artist, it's Eminem's interpretations of the world, he's not only provoking the world around him but commenting on it, dissecting it, turning it into hilarity and satire.

MBFTF is more of a personal indulgence. And for that reason I just don't believe it's as 'big' as 'relevant' or as 'important'. As it doesn't speak to many outside of Kanye fans and Kanye himself. Where as The Marshall Mathers LP sparked debate and conversation on every realm of literature, censorship, free speech... have you seen MBDTF do anything such in its own way?

So I just don't think it's accurate to say it's had a bigger impact. I'm not telling you that you can't prefer it, like what you want. But it has not had a bigger impact on the world, the genre or in hardly any other conceivable way I can think of or see fit. It's also not as coherent, The Marshall Mathers LP is a really consistent, purposely hilarious piece of artistic bigotry that runs start to finish like an atomic bomb, it's so calculated and daring.

There's more wit and originality in a single line on MMLP than there is on the entirity of MBDTF. Ye's album is great, I don't see it as a classic, let alone an instant classic, but it does have classic tracks and some of my favourite Kanye material. But it's not a consistent enough, daring or important enough piece of art with a real or single enough aim to be placed alongside or called bigger than The Marshall Mathers LP.

Has it had a bigger impact commercially? no way. Has it had a bigger impact critically? well, overall it's got more rave reviews for its musical ambition and scope sure, but The Marshall Mathers LP had critics marveled over Em's emotional complexity, wit, originality and balls. And the public reaction, critically speaking, was a lot stronger, more vocal and powerful for it too, not just from protesters and detractors but even from people in support of it.

The Marshall Mathers LP raised consciousness about free speech in art again, pushed it to the limit, and won. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is just Kanye exploring his musical ambitions and visual ideas. And that's nowhere near as important, universal or commendable.

One of my favourite little summations of MMLP is this:
a work of art whose immense entertainment value in no way compromises its intimations of a pathology that's both personal and political

MBDTF is not as complex as that.

So on what level has it had a bigger impact. Just because you prefer it or it's had a bigger impact in your life doesn't mean it's the same for the world lmao. Overall, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it's had close to the same impact, outside of personal preference. MBDTF is a Kanye album, for Kanye fans, and music fans - but it has not captured an entire generation and youth, it doesn't mean as much, it's not particularly daring outside of the ambition... nah, it's just not close.

To me it's almost like saying a really good, critically well received film that fared pretty well at the box office had more impact than a than some absolutely gigantic commercial, legendary blockbuster. The Marshall Mathers LP has the complexity of an art film but had the impact of a blockbuster. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fansty is somewhere in between, but it certainly did not have a BIGGER impact.

I also don't think it's accurate to say MBDTF is ahead of MMLP in emotion. Kanye is perhaps a little more honest sometimes, but "The Way I Am" alone has more emotion by far.

[SliK]

So on what level has it had a bigger impact. Just because you prefer it or it's had a bigger impact in your life doesn't mean it's the same for the world lmao. Overall, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it's had close to the same impact, outside of personal preference. MBDTF is a Kanye album, for Kanye fans, and music fans - but it has not captured an entire generation and youth, it doesn't mean as much, it's not particularly daring outside of the ambition... nah, it's just not close.

I didn't say it had a bigger impact the world over, I said where I'm from it did though. Quit putting words in my mouth lmao. But here it did capture the voice of a generation. MY generation. HERE. NOW. MMLP is forever, and I have already told you I think it is a better album, so again I don't know where you get the idea that I prefer MBDTW, but I'll say again. MMLP is a timeless classic that will be relatable for years. Fully deserving of it's place at #2. However, MBDTW is as important for hip hop and music right now as MMLP has been and will be for years to come. I see it as a snapshot of 2010. Or less a snapshot, and more of a surrealist painting with vivid colours and styles. Of course it's Egotystical, self-obsessed, holier than though and everything else we attribute to Kanye and his music. But so are we.

When MBDTF dropped, I'm not kidding it spread like the plauge. Everyone had it and was listening to it and LOVING it regardless of age, gender, colour, musical preference, whatever. My Dad likes MBDTF. My Mum likes MBDTF. I remember Runaway came on at this bar we were at and I've never seen a reaction like that to a song at a bar. For you to say MBDTF is oinly for Kanye fans is absurd. But then you say it's also for music fans, which I assume a lot of music is (MMLP included)... It has a lot broader audiance (without being a "Broad" album per se. By that I mean he doesnt make it broad to appeal to the masses like popstars. I see it the same as Eminem's music in a way, popular because of what it is, not because it was made to be popular).

And to compare the commercial success of the two is ridiculous. Ok HAMMER TIME > MMLP?? lmao get the fuck outta here...

[EminemBase]

So on what level has it had a bigger impact. Just because you prefer it or it's had a bigger impact in your life doesn't mean it's the same for the world lmao. Overall, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it's had close to the same impact, outside of personal preference. MBDTF is a Kanye album, for Kanye fans, and music fans - but it has not captured an entire generation and youth, it doesn't mean as much, it's not particularly daring outside of the ambition... nah, it's just not close.

I didn't say it had a bigger impact the world over, I said where I'm from it did though. Quit putting words in my mouth lmao. But here it did capture the voice of a generation. MY generation. HERE. NOW. MMLP is forever, and I have already told you I think it is a better album, so again I don't know where you get the idea that I prefer MBDTW, but I'll say again. MMLP is a timeless classic that will be relatable for years. Fully deserving of it's place at #2. However, MBDTW is as important for hip hop and music right now as MMLP has been and will be for years to come. I see it as a snapshot of 2010. Or less a snapshot, and more of a surrealist painting with vivid colours and styles. Of course it's Egotystical, self-obsessed, holier than though and everything else we attribute to Kanye and his music. But so are we.

Well listen here, I'M of your generation too. I'm 21, you're only a few years older than me.

And My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has NOT captured my generation at all. There's not enough broad, tangible, substance to it for it to do that. Whenever Kanye speaks on anything meaningful it's more than often just to black people, about being black, and racism. Those issues are by their very nature confined to a minority therefore not as big or able to capture as many minds as the themes of MMLP.

Eminem touched on teen suicide, censorship, rebellion, youthful angst - much bigger and more 'relatable' themes that can speak to every human being alive.

It's not even close to a zeitgeist defining album. It's just a very good album deserving of the praise for its ambition and scope, musically speaking. But there's not enough lyrical or conceptual depth that speaks beyond basic ideas to say it's a captured a generation.

So maybe it's 'captured' people around you locally. But that is not the same as capturing a fucking generation. Everybody I know doesn't have it, I don't hear people I know raving about it or see every other person mentioning it like everybody did The Marshall Mathers LP. And MMLP spoke to people from about the age of 10-25, it captured an entire gap of rage, emotion and humour.

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has not done that. It's not that funny, it's not that innovative (only musically, but the songs ideas or lyrics are not) and not that important.

And to compare the commercial success of the two is ridiculous. Ok HAMMER TIME > MMLP?? lmao get the fuck outta here...

Well actually, when you're talking about IM-PAC-T then yes comparing album sales is fucking valid. As sales are part of impact. Can an album which sells 100 copies be the voice of a generation? of course not you retard. Clearly a significant, and... hugely significant amount of a generation need to fucking buy an album for it to be a clear vocal impression of them.

It's certainly not the most important factor but IT IS a factor. And your MC Hammer 'point' doesn't work as it's not the same category artistically. If The Marshall Mathers LP only had huge sales and nothing else you'd have a point. But were people calling MC Hammer a modern Shakespeare, praising him as a literary genius and did he flip the world on its head? no. So you get the fuck outta here.

The Marshall Mathers LP has pop-like sales and artistic credibility. A very rare thing. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has both too, but less of the former, but since they're both extremely acclaimed albums, the sales in this context DO matter. And My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy did not cause people to go out their minds, camp outside stores or buy by the truckload. It's no comparison.

Fuck sales - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has not, had anywhere near, the same impact.

[SliK]

So on what level has it had a bigger impact. Just because you prefer it or it's had a bigger impact in your life doesn't mean it's the same for the world lmao. Overall, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it's had close to the same impact, outside of personal preference. MBDTF is a Kanye album, for Kanye fans, and music fans - but it has not captured an entire generation and youth, it doesn't mean as much, it's not particularly daring outside of the ambition... nah, it's just not close.

I didn't say it had a bigger impact the world over, I said where I'm from it did though. Quit putting words in my mouth lmao. But here it did capture the voice of a generation. MY generation. HERE. NOW. MMLP is forever, and I have already told you I think it is a better album, so again I don't know where you get the idea that I prefer MBDTW, but I'll say again. MMLP is a timeless classic that will be relatable for years. Fully deserving of it's place at #2. However, MBDTW is as important for hip hop and music right now as MMLP has been and will be for years to come. I see it as a snapshot of 2010. Or less a snapshot, and more of a surrealist painting with vivid colours and styles. Of course it's Egotystical, self-obsessed, holier than though and everything else we attribute to Kanye and his music. But so are we.

Well listen here, I'M of your generation too. I'm 21, you're only a few years older than me.

And My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has NOT captured my generation at all. There's not enough broad, tangible, substance to it for it to do that. Whenever Kanye speaks on anything meaningful it's more than often just to black people, about being black, and racism. Those issues are by their very nature confined to a minority therefore not as big or able to capture as many minds as the themes of MMLP.

It's not even close to a zeitgeist defining album. It's just a very good album deserving of the praise for its ambition and scope, musically speaking. But there's not enough lyrical or conceptual depth that speaks beyond basic ideas to say it's a captured a generation.

So maybe it's 'captured' people around you locally. But that is not the same as capturing a fucking generation. Everybody I know doesn't have it, I don't hear people I know raving about it or see every other person mentioning it like everybody did The Marshall Mathers LP. And MMLP spoke to people from about the age of 10-25, it captured an entire gap of rage, emotion and humour.

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has not done that. It's not that funny, it's not that innovative (only musically, but the songs ideas or lyrics are not) and not that important.

And to compare the commercial success of the two is ridiculous. Ok HAMMER TIME > MMLP?? lmao get the fuck outta here...

Well actually, when you're talking about IM-PAC-T then yes comparing album sales is fucking valid. As sales are part of impact. Can an album which sells 100 copies be the voice of a generation? of course not you retard. Clearly a significant, and... hugely significant amount of a generation need to fucking buy an album for it to be a clear vocal impression of them.

It's certainly not the most important factor but IT IS a factor. And your MC Hammer 'point' doesn't work as it's not the same category artistically. If The Marshall Mathers LP only had huge sales and nothing else you'd have a point. But were people calling MC Hammer a modern Shakespeare, praising him as a literary genius and did he flip the world on its head? no. So you get the fuck outta here.

The Marshall Mathers LP has pop-like sales and artistic credibility. A very rare thing. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has both too, but less of the latter, but since they're both extremely acclaimed albums, the sales in this context DOES matter. And My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy did not cause people to go out their minds, camp outside stores or buy by the truckload. It's no comparison.

Fuck sales - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has not, had anywhere near, the same impact.

The fact that you say "well listen here" proves you aren't of MY generation. You're an old soul

You simply can't compare sales of an album from 2000 to 2010, that's my point. The market has drastically declined. MBDTF leaked and it was EVERYWHERE before it even released. Mother fuckers were bumping that censored version because that's all they could get their hands on. I was one of them. MMLP didn't leak nor were there other ways of obtaining it, save a few bootlegged copies on the streets. You really want to say albums like The Massacre > MBDTF? Anything Nelly has done > MBDTF? Anything Ja Rule has done? The Massacre is a diamond album, or close enough. But very very far below MBDTF as far as EVERYTHING goes. Sorry but comparing the sales of two albums that are over a decade apart, in this economy, just doesn't work.

Anyway man you seem to be getting too agressive and I'm getting a little offended tbh, I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts so I'm going to end it here. This isn't me saying "I'm getting the final say so fuck you", respond if you want, in fact that would be good, but please keep it respectful. I understand you disagree with me but when you're "lmao-ing" at my posts and stuff it fires me up, then calling me a retard is just lame. Back your posts up with intelligent points, which you do... So I see no need for insults. Crush your opponents with cold hard facts, unowatimsayin'?

[EminemBase]

You simply can't compare sales of an album from 2000 to 2010, that's my point. The market has drastically declined. MBDTF leaked and it was EVERYWHERE before it even released. Mother fuckers were bumping that censored version because that's all they could get their hands on. I was one of them. MMLP didn't leak nor were there other ways of obtaining it, save a few bootlegged copies on the streets. You really want to say albums like The Massacre > MBDTF? Anything Nelly has done > MBDTF? Anything Ja Rule has done? The Massacre is a diamond album, or close enough. But very very far below MBDTF as far as EVERYTHING goes. Sorry but comparing the sales of two albums that are over a decade apart, in this economy, just doesn't work.

Again you're missing the point. You're comparing artistic albums to commercial-only albums. The Massacre is not a critically acclaimed album, it's a not an artistically deep or creative album. It's a very basic, commercial rap album.

You can only compare like to like. I'm comparing the sales of The Marshall Mathers LP and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy as they're both artistic visions. They're bull headed, committed albums of visual and musical conviction. Which refuse to compromise or pander. So they're directly comparable, and when you're comparing albums like that and arguing over impact, yes sales do matter.

And yes now things leak but Lady GaGa's most recent album sold 1.1 million albums in its 1st week. And she's one of the biggest artists in the world so her material leaking is a big a problem as any. So that's simply not a good enough excuse.

It's not as big as you're making out. Maybe to you, maybe locally. But certainly not for a generation. If anything it has upper-class appeal to people of all generations due to the musical exploration but there's not enough meaning in it to pretend it speaks to a generation.

When you speak about albums that are the voice of a generation, you think of Public Enemy, you think of things that merge personal and political angst. And whilst Kanye does that to a degree, or in the odd line or two - he does not do it consistently or powerfully enough to be up in the same realm as people like Eminem. And that album does not speak to as many people in as many complex, interesting and funny ways as The Marshall Mathers LP did.

You remember the performances of Em performing that album, with a sea of people religiously reciting and feeling every single word along with him, them living and breathing his emotion and angst, them expressing their own rage and rebellion THROUGH him? Kanye hasn't done that and I think it's ridiculous to say he has.

No rapper has ever connected with youth and people as effectively as Eminem has. Through emotion, rage, humour and entertainment. And certainly not Kanye with that album. People don't live and die for Kanye in the same way, "Stan" sums up MMLP's impact. To suggest My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has had even the same impact, deep down, as that SONG even is wrong. It hasn't got under people's skin or connected with people in the same way.

There's nothing innovative or original enough in what he's saying for him to have done or possibly do that. He hasn't created that connection.

Anyway man you seem to be getting too agressive and I'm getting a little offended tbh, I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts so I'm going to end it here. This isn't me saying "I'm getting the final say so fuck you", respond if you want, in fact that would be good, but please keep it respectful. I understand you disagree with me but when you're "lmao-ing" at my posts and stuff it fires me up, then calling me a retard is just lame. Back your posts up with intelligent points, which you do... So I see no need for insults. Crush your opponents with cold hard facts, unowatimsayin'?

Offended? well don't tell me to 'get the fuck outta here' then.

I was 'lmao-ing' at the point, as just an arbitrary expression, not AT you in particular. Don't tell me to 'keep it respectful' after you tell me to 'get the fuck outta here'. Live by your own words and maybe others will follow. Insult or provoke me, and I'll gladly serve you back.

And I always back-up everything I say as you can clearly see from the detail I go in to, I'm always trying to express what I mean as clearly and honestly as possible and get to the truth myself - as I'm writing it. So don't act as if all I did was insult you to try and immediately take credibility away from everything else I said. That's like parents who used to hear Eminem and say 'all he does is swear' as if he's doing nothing but that, and there's nothing in between.

[SliK]

GaGa's album cost $1 and sold over 450k units at yhat price, its a bit different homie. I am sorry but i dont agree that you can compare sales in this economy to anyghing. People camped out for N*Sync, are you saying they are immensely more talented than say, Justin Bieber? I think that is a good comparison, and obviously sales these days just dont compare. Period.

I just wanted to say sorry for the fuck oitta here line, it was in the same vane as lmao-ing at a point. Just sort of shrugging it off. Like you I was teying to discredit the argument, not the person making the point.

I also want to point out, that my initial post was to defend MBDTF, not take anything away from MMLP. I think MMLP deserves #2 and i think MBDTF deserves #5. Im not really trying to argue the points ypur making (other than your comparison of sales because sales dont mean a damn especially these days but whatever its a moot point), more like trying to defend mine.

Peace

[EminemBase]

GaGa's album cost $1 and sold over 450k units at yhat price, its a bit different homie. I am sorry but i dont agree that you can compare sales in this economy to anyghing. People camped out for N*Sync, are you saying they are immensely more talented than say, Justin Bieber? I think that is a good comparison, and obviously sales these days just dont compare. Period.

Again you're mentioning broad, popularly appealing, walking products, totally missing the point of what I am saying. When you're comparing acts or albums that AIM for millions of sales, acts which exist ONLY to sell, it's pointless. As that's their only aim.

But when we're talking about albums that are: defiant, artistic, intelligent, funny, daring, deep, experimental and offensive - YES, SALES, DO, MATTER. Becuase they are not AIMING for sales. So if an album is raw, uncensored, doesn't pander in any way shape or form and is daring and yet sells like a Britney Spears album, that makes it extremely important.

As that means, despite its rough edges, despite its hardcore filling, it's executed SO brilliantly and effectively that the mainstream simply can't ignore it. That's precisely what The Marshall Mathers LP did. So yes, whilst comparing direct sales would be useless given our current climate, when we're talking about impact regarding two artistic albums of this nature - sales DO matter. As they're not directly aiming for sales, it's an upshot.

So whatever they do sell, relative to the climate, speaks volumes of how important the artist is and how much the material is resonating. Like I say, if an album sold 100 copies, could you say it was the voice of a generation? with a straight face? that'd be fucking ridiculous. How can an album which hardly anybody has heard be the voice of a generation right.

IF you agree with that point, you are already conceding that sales do matter so stop pretending that they don't. When we're talking about the impact of artistic projects which aim to innovate or excite rather than sell for their own sake, sales very much speak on their importance and how effectively the artist has achieved their goal.

If nobody is listening, it's not working.

Like I have already said, sales are not the most important factor but they are a factor, and do play into the conversion when comparing impact. Whether you like it or not. It's a fact of reaction, deal with it. But on every other front, The Marshall Mathers LP still beats it. So forget sales (don't resort to it again, we disagree - move on), let's drop that point entirely, I'd love to see you prove to me how My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy has had close to the impact on ANY level beyond production. You'll have a hard time.