The Game claims Eminem is the GOAT

[richard]

It is detrogatary to call a true artist, a pop artist.

Not necessarily...there are many 'true artists' that will always be classified as pop just because of some of the songs they make which become huge...even though they have plenty of other gems that never make it to radio. John Mayer can play circles around most guitarists but most people just know him as that guy who sings 'your body is a wonderland'.

Also, even speaking in terms of pop as a genre and not (incorrectly) as 'popular music,' Eminem's music doesn't fall far from the definition (as best as you can define sound, at least)...music of widespread appeal aimed towards young people with strong rhythmic and technological elements.

Yes, not necessarily. I think more than not though.

As pop, the genre of pop and music that is definitely pop is AIMED to appeal to as many as possible. It aims NOT to offend, it aims to be unoffensive, easy, comfortable. All the things I think most great art is not. I think great art often unsettles.

And Eminem creates art, or at least did and sometimes does that unsettles. But it's most certainly not watered done, anodyne, safe and most of all, not pop.

Pop is all those things. Pop is a genre, it doesn't just mean popular music. So just because music happens to be popular, doesn't make it pop. If an Iron Maden song happens to become a hit, as an upshot - is that then a pop song? of course not. It's a popular heavy metal song.

But a 'pop song' is a song that IS POP. And Eminem does not make pop music.

Eminem is a popular rapper, a hip hop artist. Not a pop artist.

But do you think Eminem has never compromised his art for more widespread appeal? If Relapse was much more successful do you think he would have stuck with that style? I know the 'what ifs' are silly but it can be very telling...I love Recovery but I feel that he was going for a more pop sound, just by listening to the beats and some of the chord progressions (did you know that both Not Afraid and LTWYL - both #1 songs - use the same tried and true chord progression for writing hit songs?).

Further, I think the way you are defining pop is more based on late 90s/early 2000s pop that was actually not offensive and very watered down...but some of the biggest pop stars now are actually quite offensive. Look at Lady Gaga causing a stir with her apparently blasphemous song 'Judas'. Her album has even been banned in some countries - and I'm sure you can agree she's a pop artist.

Genres also cross over very often...a song doesn't strictly have to be only hip hop or only pop, etc. Linkin Park creates a fusion of sounds that is pretty hard to categorize. I agree Eminem is a hip hop artists first and foremost as that comprises the bulk of what he does...but if you write even a single pop song, you are a pop artist to an extent.

Do none of Eminem's songs sound pop to you? 'The Real Slim Shady,' maybe? Written at the request of Interscope, AIMING for a big first single...maybe the hook of Not Afraid? Those lyrics are pretty damn cheesy too.

[EminemBase]

But do you think Eminem has never compromised his art for more widespread appeal? If Relapse was much more successful do you think he would have stuck with that style? I know the 'what ifs' are silly but it can be very telling...I love Recovery but I feel that he was going for a more pop sound, just by listening to the beats and some of the chord progressions (did you know that both Not Afraid and LTWYL - both #1 songs - use the same tried and true chord progression for writing hit songs?).

Yes he's compromised his art to a degree, for his lead singles here and there. But not much. "My Name Is" wasn't originally intended to be the big hit it was, it was an upshot, he was just fucking around. So that wasn't aimed the way it was.

Aiming for a song to be big doesn't mean it's pop either. But aiming for it to appeal at as many as possible and offend as little as possible, and its execution, does.

And not a single Eminem song can be called a pop song in that sense. I don't know of an Eminem song which doesn't contain a lot of divisive, defiant, angry / satirical and dark lyricism of some kind. You can't call lyrics and an artist with such a blatant, honest personality and voice a pop artist.

Yes there are unique pop artists but their lyrics or ideas are rarely unique. Eminem speaks to the listener, he's the voice of a generation like Dylan was to his.

He's had to make hits to sustain a career. But everybody who wants to make a living from it needs to conform to that to a degree. And it's also about having a voice in music, and he obviously wants more people to hear it, so he can get feedback and appreciation. But that's a lot different to making the content itself as appealing as possible, which he doesn't.

Eminem is not that. But that's what pop is.

If you take like "Without Me" for example. Aside from the fact it's catchier, the lyrics are hardly watered down at all, and it's still lyrically brilliant, raw and confrontational. Same with all his first singles bar "Just Lose It" which was just forced and tired. Still not pop, just bad.

He makes hits hits by making them melodic and catchier than his usual songs. And he somewhat waters down HIS OWN material, to bypass censoring more and have his album heard. But a raw hip hop artist and bull-headed visionary watering down or modifying the odd song or two for a single for the sake of selling, is completely different to an artist who lives to sell, who aims only to please as many as possible at once and who's singles are practically the same as their album material.

Often, with a pop artist - their best songs are their singles. As every song they make is intended to be a hit, as that's their only reason for existing.

They treat it like creating products. Where as with Em, you'll notice - often the worst songs on the album are the singles.

With Recovery, the sound of some of it may be more pop - the music etc. but HE remains him. "Cold Wind Blows", that sounds pop does it? even "Not Afraid" - it aims to be a 'bigger' piece of music, he obviously tried to make it a big song, but the lyrics are not pop. He's basically analyzing himself, confronting his psyche, he's not censoring himself.

Pop censors itself.

The music / beats of Recovery is shit. But Eminem remained hip hop throughout, he remained a rapper throughout, he remained an individualist throughout and as usual said whatever he wanted in whatever way he wanted. Pop artists don't do that.

Further, I think the way you are defining pop is more based on late 90s/early 2000s pop that was actually not offensive and very watered down...but some of the biggest pop stars now are actually quite offensive. Look at Lady Gaga causing a stir with her apparently blasphemous song 'Judas'. Her album has even been banned in some countries - and I'm sure you can agree she's a pop artist.

Lady GaGa isn't really offensive. She's more of a walking novelty than anything, she may be a pop artist but the only real shock comes from her outfits. Hardly groundbreaking is it, wearing shocking outfits. Pop artists have done that since the beginning.

Look at Britney Spears, she caused offense when she came out at like 16 for nearly exposing her whole body and dressing like a slut. Same with Christina. But that's just them. Their music is inoffensive, it censors itself.

Lady GaGa still lives to make hits. Her aim is always to make a gigantic song and whilst she has somewhat of an edge to her, she still utlimately cares more about popular appeal.

Eminem however, only makes hits when he has to. He makes singles as a chore to push the album as unfortunately, music is now like a business so true artists are forced to do that. But his album content is the art, that's what he lives for. He lives to push boundaries, he lives to move the genre and artform forward, most pop artists just live to make hits.

A lot of pop artists for example think they've lost it when they can't chart a single. Eminem thinks he's lost it when he can't write a rhyme, big difference. He lives and cares about craft, that's his passion. He's a craftsman, and a wordsmith, and he cares about ideas and execution. Not just about popping up on arbitrary singles charts. That's just what he has to do to exist within the industry.

Genres also cross over very often...a song doesn't strictly have to be only hip hop or only pop, etc. Linkin Park creates a fusion of sounds that is pretty hard to categorize. I agree Eminem is a hip hop artists first and foremost as that comprises the bulk of what he does...but if you write even a single pop song, you are a pop artist to an extent.

Yes genres do cross and there is rarely a solid definition for a single genre.

But we need to refer to the music as something. And whilst even hip hop is hard to define as it borrows from practically every other genre and is constantly morphing and experimenting, there is still a common ground in what Eminem does, and what Nas does. They still work within the same world.

Eminem and Nas, are from the same world. Eminem is a rapper. He's not from the world of Britney Spears, boy bands and pop artists. They do not exist in the 'true artist' or individualist realm. They're walking products, hit machines. They're not comparable.

And yes I believe if you write a pop song you are a pop artist. But like I said I do not believe Eminem has written a single song that can be called pop. He's worked with pop artists, he's had pop elements (chorus, music) in his songs. But HE remains hip hop, he does not censor himself, he remains lyrical, he remains edgy.

He is not and never has been, even for a second, pop.

Do none of Eminem's songs sound pop to you? 'The Real Slim Shady,' maybe? Written at the request of Interscope, AIMING for a big first single...maybe the hook of Not Afraid? Those lyrics are pretty damn cheesy too.

No. "Love the Way You Lie" for example has a pop chorus. That's just a hook though. It's a rap song with a pop hook. Not a pop song with rapping on it.

Either way, it's way too confrontational and in your face, and unadulterated to be called pop. It's adult music. Eminem's themes and thoughts are aimed at adults. As much as people think of rap and Eminem as a 'kids' artists' - he's not at all. The references he makes, the way he speaks, the vocabulary he uses, he's an adult artist.

There's too much food for thought, poetic expression, individualism and non-conformity in every element of what he does to ever call it pop. "The Real Slim Shady" does not sound like pop to me no. It sounds like hip hop. It sounds like catchy hip hop.

He's rapping, over a rap beat. He's rhyming words and rapping, and saying offensive and funny things, over a rap beat. That's hip hop, the song is hip hop. It was a hit because it was catchy. But pop isn't just = catchy. Themes define it and execution defines it.

The execution and themes of "The Real Slim Shady" is in no way pop. In fact he's insulting pop with it, it's almost an intentional parody of pop sensibility. He's separating himself from pop. It's absolute hip hop.

And even though the music of Recovery contains more pop... actually if anything, it contains more rock elements. Does the beat of "Won't Back Down" sound like pop to you? there are elements on the odd song which are more pop than not, but if Eminem - a rapper, rapping, over a beat which has pop elements makes him a pop artist...

Then does Rihanna - a pop artist, singing, on a song with hip hop elements ("Love the Way You Lie") suddenly make her a hip hop artist...

Can't have your cake and eat it. If Eminem rapping over a song with a pop element makes him a pop artist. Then a pop artist singing over a song with rap elements, makes them a rap artist.

[richard]

Aiming for a song to be big doesn't mean it's pop either. But aiming for it to appeal at as many as possible and offend as little as possible, and its execution, does.

Aiming for a song to be big and aiming for it to appeal to as many people as possible are the same thing...that's how songs get big. I also think this whole thing about pop music not being offensive at all. Sure Eminem is more over the top than other artists but take Katy Perry for example, in a song entitled Teenage Dream (stress the TEENAGE) the lyrics are "Let's go all the way tonight, no regrets, just love." Many parents did take offense to these lyrics and the glorification of being a whore - and this was a number one single.

But a raw hip hop artist and bull-headed visionary watering down or modifying the odd song or two for a single for the sake of selling, is completely different to an artist who lives to sell, who aims only to please as many as possible at once and who's singles are practically the same as their album material.

I agree that there is a difference but I think this point has to do more with the topic of selling out rather than the sound of the music itself.

Often, with a pop artist - their best songs are their singles. As every song they make is intended to be a hit, as that's their only reason for existing.

A lot of his best songs were singles. Lose Yourself, Stan, Sing For The Moment. Of course this is opinion but these are also widely regarded as among his best.

They treat it like creating products. Where as with Em, you'll notice - often the worst songs on the album are the singles.

Our Eminem album elimination game seems to suggest otherwise...though I agree there are better songs than his singles on his albums, the singles are definitely not the worst.

With Recovery, the sound of some of it may be more pop - the music etc. but HE remains him. "Cold Wind Blows", that sounds pop does it? even "Not Afraid" - it aims to be a 'bigger' piece of music, he obviously tried to make it a big song, but the lyrics are not pop. He's basically analyzing himself, confronting his psyche, he's not censoring himself.

'Cold Wind Blows' is the rawest song on the album, so no argument there. I think that hook for 'Not Afraid' is very cheesy and watered down. "We'll walk this road together, through the storm, whatever weather, cold or warm..."Cheesy, been-done-before, cliche even. Not to mention it's over the minor6-4-1-5 chord progression - the most popular chord progression in pop hits. I know he didn't produce the track, but this is HIS album and thus HIS art. This is an EMINEM song, very few people perceive this song as Boi-1da's project. And for that I believe that yes, he wrote a pop song.

The music / beats of Recovery is shit. But Eminem remained hip hop throughout, he remained a rapper throughout, he remained an individualist throughout and as usual said whatever he wanted in whatever way he wanted. Pop artists don't do that.

Some do, some don't. Some pop artists are very manufactured, Rihanna for example. Other pop artists do this like it's 2nd nature.

A lot of pop artists for example think they've lost it when they can't chart a single. Eminem thinks he's lost it when he can't write a rhyme, big difference. He lives and cares about craft, that's his passion. He's a craftsman, and a wordsmith, and he cares about ideas and execution. Not just about popping up on arbitrary singles charts. That's just what he has to do to exist within the industry.

I think it can be said that although he doesn't hate Relapse, it didn't live up to his expecations and thus birthed Recovery. He mentioned disappointment in not being included on MTV's hottest MCs list - now I know this is pertinent to hip hop and not pop, but if you look at how the list is actually judged, it is very much based on that pop music criteria. It's also undeniable that the rapping on Relapse is technically superior to that of Recovery, with some exceptions such as 'Beautiful' from Relapse and 'On Fire' from Recovery.

Yes genres do cross and there is rarely a solid definition for a single genre.

And this is why I believe Eminem is somewhat of a pop artist. A hip hop genius first and foremost, but has released some songs with many pop elements which could justifiably be classified as pop music, thus making him a pop artist even if only to a very limited extent.

There's too much food for thought, poetic expression, individualism and non-conformity in every element of what he does to ever call it pop.

Pop music can have all of these things too...it just needs to have that sound to it.

And even though the music of Recovery contains more pop... actually if anything, it contains more rock elements. Does the beat of "Won't Back Down" sound like pop to you? there are elements on the odd song which are more pop than not, but [b]if Eminem - a rapper, rapping, over a beat which has pop elements makes him a pop artist...

Then does Rihanna - a pop artist, singing, on a song with hip hop elements ("Love the Way You Lie") suddenly make her a hip hop artist...

Can't have your cake and eat it. If Eminem rapping over a song with a pop element makes him a pop artist. Then a pop artist singing over a song with rap elements, makes them a rap artist.

'Rap' and 'hip hop' are often used interchangeably but 'hip hop' songs need not containg rapping to be called hip hop. Rapping is more of the technique commonly employed in hip hop. So that point is a little silly - but yes, if Rihanna were to actually RAP, then she would be a rap artist. To an extent she is a hip hop artist, and she also wades in and out of other genres as well...R&B, etc.

[richard]

Oops, I forgot this thread was about The Game.

[VenomBlackViper]

Oops, I forgot this thread was about The Game.

Who?

[richard]

Oops, I forgot this thread was about The Game.

Who?

Kanye West, duh.

[EminemBase]

Aiming for a song to be big and aiming for it to appeal to as many people as possible are the same thing...that's how songs get big. I also think this whole thing about pop music not being offensive at all. Sure Eminem is more over the top than other artists but take Katy Perry for example, in a song entitled Teenage Dream (stress the TEENAGE) the lyrics are "Let's go all the way tonight, no regrets, just love." Many parents did take offense to these lyrics and the glorification of being a whore - and this was a number one single.

No it's not, at all.

Because pop songs are geared to just appeal to any and everybody, as many as possible. No bias, no worries who likes it or why or any of that.

Where as, Eminem could of wanted "Stan" to be big, I'm sure he did. But would you that is a pop song? or in any way comparable to a pop artist writing a hit to be big. It's an artistic, storytelling track. But he could of still very well wanted it to be big and legendary.

I'm sure he wanted "Lose Yourself" to be big. But he didn't aim it to appeal to as many as possible as it's intelligent and poetic. And intelligence is a minority. He aimed for it to be big through execution and quality, not by watering it down to offend as little as possible.

There's a massive difference between the two, and a massive difference between Eminem or a true artist aiming or wanting a CREATION and idea to be big and provocative, and a pop artist aiming for... a jingle, to be a big hit.

A lot of his best songs were singles. Lose Yourself, Stan, Sing For The Moment. Of course this is opinion but these are also widely regarded as among his best.

I'm mainly talking first singles. It's only really the lead single that he ever needed to push the album. "Stan" didn't fare well on the charts, "Lose Yourself" was gigantic but largely due to the movie but it's also just a perfect marriage of... you see, for a song to be a hit it doesn't have to be pop.

"Lose Yourself" is one of the greatest hip hop songs ever written period. In any sense. Technically, and the beat is pure hip hop. Yet it's a massive, massive hit. That doesn't make it pop though. That song is in no way pop. It's poetic, thoughtful, meaningful, spirited.

Just because something is big or gets big doesn't make it pop music.

Those other songs were clearly made as songs then put out as singles, and yes, they're some of his best but essentially album material. They're not written to be singles. Again, the guy who wrote "Sing for the Moment"... a pop artist? not a chance. He's more rock than pop.

You could way more easily argue his rock crossover, as he has lots of rock elements and rock attitude in his music. He has no pop attitude though and nothing he does as an artist, is pop. Pop by its very nature is safe, he's the opposite of that. Just because he makes catchy music... basically all his music is catchy, even songs about raping women.

His songs are catchy because he's a good musician and has an ear for melody. And knows how to make a good song. But pop doesn't hold the monopoly on catchy.

Our Eminem album elimination game seems to suggest otherwise...though I agree there are better songs than his singles on his albums, the singles are definitely not the worst.

Lead singles.

"My Name Is" is easily the worst song on The Slim Shady LP to me.

I think "The Real Slim Shady" is a classic hip hop track but one of the worst on the album. Not thee worst maybe... I can't figure out wish, they're all pretty classic.

"Without Me" is one of the best, but almost every track on TES is amazing.

"Just Lose It" is easily the worst on the album and worst song he's ever made to me.

"We Made You" is one of the worst on Relapse. Though not actually a bad song to me. But, yeah, definitely one of the worst.

And, didn't you say you thought "Not Afraid" was cheesy and you didn't particularly like it? so... actually, in this elimination game, it seems they are usually the worst.

Even when his lead singles are good like "Without Me", it's a song written to be a single. It's a concise, summary version of Eminem, not a true Eminem song. It's a song where he's being entertaining to grab attention, it's certainly not his best lyrical content.

I think it'd be daft to say his lead singles are his best material. And that's all I'm really talking about. As with Em they usually just make sure he has one lead single. Then they put out the catchiest or least offensive material, or songs with the biggest hooks as the next.

'Cold Wind Blows' is the rawest song on the album, so no argument there. I think that hook for 'Not Afraid' is very cheesy and watered down. "We'll walk this road together, through the storm, whatever weather, cold or warm..."Cheesy, been-done-before, cliche even. Not to mention it's over the minor6-4-1-5 chord progression - the most popular chord progression in pop hits. I know he didn't produce the track, but this is HIS album and thus HIS art. This is an EMINEM song, very few people perceive this song as Boi-1da's project. And for that I believe that yes, he wrote a pop song.

No, he didn't write a pop song. The chorus is watered down for the sake of a message, it's corny but Em has always usually been corny when trying to be deadly serious or convey this kind of thing. Motivation by its nature is usually corny.

But the lyrical content in the song is not watered down. No pop artist would write a song dissecting their own character flaws so bluntly and brutally, addressing fans like an open letter... it's the song of a songwriter. Cheesy or not, it's not pop. It's just cheesy rap.

He says fuck the world in it, he's still a rebellion in it. He's not toning himself down at ALL. He's more explicit than usual in the first verse, defiant for the sake of it.

The lyrical content and therefore the song, to me, is not pop. As hip hop is a largely lyrical genre, the focus is on the lyrics. So if the lyrics aren't pop, the song isn't pop. And none of Eminem's lyrics have ever been pop. If they had been, I'd of noticed it and I'd be pissed off about it. He's been cheesy, he''s been lazy, he's been unfunny. But never pop.

I think it can be said that although he doesn't hate Relapse, it didn't live up to his expecations and thus birthed Recovery. He mentioned disappointment in not being included on MTV's hottest MCs list - now I know this is pertinent to hip hop and not pop, but if you look at how the list is actually judged, it is very much based on that pop music criteria. It's also undeniable that the rapping on Relapse is technically superior to that of Recovery, with some exceptions such as 'Beautiful' from Relapse and 'On Fire' from Recovery.

I don't think it has anything to do with expectations. I just think it's because it got a mixed critical and fan reaction and he couldn't handle it.

I think he sold himself short and compromised with Recovery. But not for the sake of money or fame, not for pop reasons. I don't think he gives a shit about that. The fact he appeals to fans in his first single speaks volumes.

I think he just thought he alienated fans and could fuck up his entire career in one foul swoop if he put Relapse 2 out. So he changed his style. And I think that's largely the reason for the lyrical drop too, not to mention the subject-matter. As many have said, it's easier to rhyme about endless violence (descriptive by nature) than it is about trials and tribulations. In such detail.

But Recovery still has some incredible lyricism. And I think it's absurd to call it a pop album given how relentless and hardcore 90% of it is. I mean... "Cold Wind Blows" and "Almost Famous" are two of his angriest, most blatantly and pointlessly offensive and aggressive tracks ever. And pop is not aggressive and relentless. As aggressive isn't a surefire appeal.

So there's just no way to justify the rapper on those tracks as pop.

And you can take any track on the album and he's lyrical, tongue-in-cheek, jokingly petulant, self-analytical. All the things he always is. The only difference is his style, which he changes every single album anyway. I just think he didn't want to look out of touch, or like a has-been.

And this is why I believe Eminem is somewhat of a pop artist. A hip hop genius first and foremost, but has released some songs with many pop elements which could justifiably be classified as pop music, thus making him a pop artist even if only to a very limited extent.

No, working with a pop artist, does not make you a pop artist.

His songs have had pop elements when he's worked with a pop artist. They need to work pop elements into the music to make the pop artist sound natural.

None of his solo songs are pop at all. And I've never heard a single pop performance from him as an artist. Always himself, always honest, always relentless, always uncensored. Look at how many rappers work with RnB and soul artists. That doesn't make them RnB or soul artists though. It just makes them rappers who have happened to work with RnB and soul artists.

Kanye West has worked fucking... techno and classical music into his music for god's sake. Is Kanye West a classical musician now too?

Pop music can have all of these things too...it just needs to have that sound to it.

No it can't. Pop is not just a sound in the same way hip hop isn't.

It's themes and styles and content.

None of Eminem's approach to themes and content can be classified as pop. And no pop ever approaches themes and content like Eminem does. Pop can touch on war, politics and all kinds of uncomfortable issues. But it does it in a safe, child-friendly, inoffensive way.

Given how totally unorthodox, in your face, ballsy, edgy and confrontation Eminem is as an artist, he as an artist, can never ever ever be called pop. It's the opposite. If you're going to call Eminem pop, you may as well throw the definition out the window and make up a new word.

[Bananastyle]

That's why I gave up on this argument a long time ago.

[Sam.]

That's why I gave up on this argument a long time ago.

I didn't even try.

[xRas]

Eminem is a goat, KiD CuDi is the goat.
Me so horny, Me me me, me so horny

[VenomBlackViper]

Eminem is a goat, KiD CuDi is the goat.
Me so horny, Me me me, me so horny

Impossible, he's a nogger, & Lil Jimmy don't like no noggers.

[xRas]

Eminem is a goat, KiD CuDi is the goat.
Me so horny, Me me me, me so horny

Impossible, he's a nogger, & Lil Jimmy don't like no noggers.

Cudi nogs its up the maximum thouuugh

[richard]

Aiming for a song to be big and aiming for it to appeal to as many people as possible are the same thing...that's how songs get big. I also think this whole thing about pop music not being offensive at all. Sure Eminem is more over the top than other artists but take Katy Perry for example, in a song entitled Teenage Dream (stress the TEENAGE) the lyrics are "Let's go all the way tonight, no regrets, just love." Many parents did take offense to these lyrics and the glorification of being a whore - and this was a number one single.

No it's not, at all.

Because pop songs are geared to just appeal to any and everybody, as many as possible. No bias, no worries who likes it or why or any of that.

Where as, Eminem could of wanted "Stan" to be big, I'm sure he did. But would you that is a pop song? or in any way comparable to a pop artist writing a hit to be big. It's an artistic, storytelling track. But he could of still very well wanted it to be big and legendary.

I'm sure he wanted "Lose Yourself" to be big. But he didn't aim it to appeal to as many as possible as it's intelligent and poetic. And intelligence is a minority. He aimed for it to be big through execution and quality, not by watering it down to offend as little as possible.

There's a massive difference between the two, and a massive difference between Eminem or a true artist aiming or wanting a CREATION and idea to be big and provocative, and a pop artist aiming for... a jingle, to be a big hit.

I'm sure he wanted 'Lose Yourself' and 'Stan' to appeal to as many people as possible. It's not like an artist would want to have less fans. He likely would want those songs to be legendary as well, and he can fulfill both those desires simultaneously. Notice I wasn't using this point to argue that 'Lose Yourself' or 'Stan' are pop songs (though 'Lose Yourself' charted on the Billboard pop songs chart - a music industry measurement standard)

A lot of his best songs were singles. Lose Yourself, Stan, Sing For The Moment. Of course this is opinion but these are also widely regarded as among his best.

I'm mainly talking first singles. It's only really the lead single that he ever needed to push the album. "Stan" didn't fare well on the charts, "Lose Yourself" was gigantic but largely due to the movie but it's also just a perfect marriage of... you see, for a song to be a hit it doesn't have to be pop.

"Lose Yourself" is one of the greatest hip hop songs ever written period. In any sense. Technically, and the beat is pure hip hop. Yet it's a massive, massive hit. That doesn't make it pop though. That song is in no way pop. It's poetic, thoughtful, meaningful, spirited.

Just because something is big or gets big doesn't make it pop music.

Those other songs were clearly made as songs then put out as singles, and yes, they're some of his best but essentially album material. They're not written to be singles. Again, the guy who wrote "Sing for the Moment"... a pop artist? not a chance. He's more rock than pop.

You could way more easily argue his rock crossover, as he has lots of rock elements and rock attitude in his music. He has no pop attitude though and nothing he does as an artist, is pop. Pop by its very nature is safe, he's the opposite of that. Just because he makes catchy music... basically all his music is catchy, even songs about raping women.

His songs are catchy because he's a good musician and has an ear for melody. And knows how to make a good song. But pop doesn't hold the monopoly on catchy.

I was simply arguing your point that singles seem to be the worst songs on the albums. Agreed that 'Lose Yourself' is among the greatest hip-hop songs ever. Never tried to call this a pop song (though Billboard would.) His rock crossover is actually quite apparent and I don't think one can even argue against it, he definitely crosses into rock quite often, you're right. Also, 'Stan' fared quite well on the charts outside of the USA, including reaching the number one spot in Australia and UK. But this is besides the point.

Our Eminem album elimination game seems to suggest otherwise...though I agree there are better songs than his singles on his albums, the singles are definitely not the worst.

Lead singles.

"My Name Is" is easily the worst song on The Slim Shady LP to me.

I think "The Real Slim Shady" is a classic hip hop track but one of the worst on the album. Not thee worst maybe... I can't figure out wish, they're all pretty classic.

"Without Me" is one of the best, but almost every track on TES is amazing.

"Just Lose It" is easily the worst on the album and worst song he's ever made to me.

"We Made You" is one of the worst on Relapse. Though not actually a bad song to me. But, yeah, definitely one of the worst.

And, didn't you say you thought "Not Afraid" was cheesy and you didn't particularly like it? so... actually, in this elimination game, it seems they are usually the worst.

Even when his lead singles are good like "Without Me", it's a song written to be a single. It's a concise, summary version of Eminem, not a true Eminem song. It's a song where he's being entertaining to grab attention, it's certainly not his best lyrical content.

I think it'd be daft to say his lead singles are his best material. And that's all I'm really talking about. As with Em they usually just make sure he has one lead single. Then they put out the catchiest or least offensive material, or songs with the biggest hooks as the next.

Specifying now that you are talking strictly about lead singles changes it a bit, but I still don't think the lead singles are his worst on the album, with the exception of maybe the Slim Shady LP.

MMLP - 'Amityville'
TES- 'Drips,' 'Say What You Say'
Encore - half this album sucked more than 'Just Lose It'
Relapse - 'Crack A Bottle' IMO
Recovery - 'On Fire' and 'Seduction'

All highly opinionated but I feel those songs are worse than the lead singles from their respective albums. I don't think his lead singles are the best, but definitely not his worst. And saying 'Without Me' is not a true Eminem song is a bit ridiculous to me - it's one of his signature songs.

I did say the hook for 'Not Afraid' is ridiculously cheesy and purposely wide-appealing...but I do like it. I can think it's cheesy and still like it. I do like some pop music.

'Cold Wind Blows' is the rawest song on the album, so no argument there. I think that hook for 'Not Afraid' is very cheesy and watered down. "We'll walk this road together, through the storm, whatever weather, cold or warm..."Cheesy, been-done-before, cliche even. Not to mention it's over the minor6-4-1-5 chord progression - the most popular chord progression in pop hits. I know he didn't produce the track, but this is HIS album and thus HIS art. This is an EMINEM song, very few people perceive this song as Boi-1da's project. And for that I believe that yes, he wrote a pop song.

No, he didn't write a pop song. The chorus is watered down for the sake of a message, it's corny but Em has always usually been corny when trying to be deadly serious or convey this kind of thing. Motivation by its nature is usually corny.

But the lyrical content in the song is not watered down. No pop artist would write a song dissecting their own character flaws so bluntly and brutally, addressing fans like an open letter... it's the song of a songwriter. Cheesy or not, it's not pop. It's just cheesy rap.

He says fuck the world in it, he's still a rebellion in it. He's not toning himself down at ALL. He's more explicit than usual in the first verse, defiant for the sake of it.

The lyrical content and therefore the song, to me, is not pop. As hip hop is a largely lyrical genre, the focus is on the lyrics. So if the lyrics aren't pop, the song isn't pop. And none of Eminem's lyrics have ever been pop. If they had been, I'd of noticed it and I'd be pissed off about it. He's been cheesy, he''s been lazy, he's been unfunny. But never pop.

The same message could be conveyed in a much less corny way and I'm sure he is capable of it. Music is unlimited like that and lyrics are quite malleable as well.

No pop artist can make an introspective song as such? "Beautiful" by Christina Aguilera, maybe?

Saying offensive things doesn't automatically dismis it's possibility of pop...pop songs can be offensive. "Shots" or "I'm in Miami Bitch" by LMFAO are perfect examples, and they're an electro-pop group.

Even the bridge of 'Not Afraid' is very watered down and simplistic, designed for widespread appeal.

But I suppose that while this is critical of 'Not Afraid,' it lends support to your idea that his lead singles are weaker. Still, 'Not Afraid' is composed of a variety of traditional pop elements meshed with new-age hip hop and though Eminem's rapped verses may still be raw, the song as a whole is somewhat pop.

I think it can be said that although he doesn't hate Relapse, it didn't live up to his expecations and thus birthed Recovery. He mentioned disappointment in not being included on MTV's hottest MCs list - now I know this is pertinent to hip hop and not pop, but if you look at how the list is actually judged, it is very much based on that pop music criteria. It's also undeniable that the rapping on Relapse is technically superior to that of Recovery, with some exceptions such as 'Beautiful' from Relapse and 'On Fire' from Recovery.

I don't think it has anything to do with expectations. I just think it's because it got a mixed critical and fan reaction and he couldn't handle it.

I think he sold himself short and compromised with Recovery. But not for the sake of money or fame, not for pop reasons. I don't think he gives a shit about that. The fact he appeals to fans in his first single speaks volumes.

I think he just thought he alienated fans and could fuck up his entire career in one foul swoop if he put Relapse 2 out. So he changed his style. And I think that's largely the reason for the lyrical drop too, not to mention the subject-matter. As many have said, it's easier to rhyme about endless violence (descriptive by nature) than it is about trials and tribulations. In such detail.

But Recovery still has some incredible lyricism. And I think it's absurd to call it a pop album given how relentless and hardcore 90% of it is. I mean... "Cold Wind Blows" and "Almost Famous" are two of his angriest, most blatantly and pointlessly offensive and aggressive tracks ever. And pop is not aggressive and relentless. As aggressive isn't a surefire appeal.

So there's just no way to justify the rapper on those tracks as pop.

And you can take any track on the album and he's lyrical, tongue-in-cheek, jokingly petulant, self-analytical. All the things he always is. The only difference is his style, which he changes every single album anyway. I just think he didn't want to look out of touch, or like a has-been.

"Not for pop reasons" - that statement is a bit ridiculous. Now you seem to be confusing pop, the sound, with popular music. Fame or money aren't 'pop reasons' necessarily. You know some pop artists actually do make their music out of passion for the sound of pop music, right? They love writing simple melodies over basic chord progressions in songs of ABABCB form, and the fame and money are a byproduct of that. That is not a motivator for every single pop artist. Many artists can afford to live on islands and never work a single day again and still make a ridiculous income off of interest, but they choose to still keep doing music because they love it.

And yes, while Relapse 2 may have been a bad idea for him when looking at his career (I personally would have loved it), Recovery is very much conforming in its production and even some of its lyricism. Although the lyricism is amazing, it was based off of what has been found in pop-rap songs in the past few years...it is not traditional Eminem style of writing.

I for one believe his old style could be very successful if he was able to get back in touch with that type of writing...people still love the old songs and many value them more than anything on Recovery.

Most of my argument for Eminem being somewhat of a pop artist is based on the sounds recorded on Recovery.

And this is why I believe Eminem is somewhat of a pop artist. A hip hop genius first and foremost, but has released some songs with many pop elements which could justifiably be classified as pop music, thus making him a pop artist even if only to a very limited extent.

No, working with a pop artist, does not make you a pop artist.

His songs have had pop elements when he's worked with a pop artist. They need to work pop elements into the music to make the pop artist sound natural.

None of his solo songs are pop at all. And I've never heard a single pop performance from him as an artist. Always himself, always honest, always relentless, always uncensored. Look at how many rappers work with RnB and soul artists. That doesn't make them RnB or soul artists though. It just makes them rappers who have happened to work with RnB and soul artists.

Kanye West has worked fucking... techno and classical music into his music for god's sake. Is Kanye West a classical musician now too?

You immediately assumed I was talking about a collaborative song here, and I didn't even specify. I'm just saying that genres cross and some pop elements have crossed into his music as of recently. Working with a pop artist doesn't make you a pop artist, but releasing pop-injected songs as YOUR material, on YOUR album under YOUR OWN record label does, even if only to a very limited extent. Once again, it is his art, his creation, and he has to give it the go-ahead to be released...

Yes, his songs have had pop elements when he works with a pop artist, but that in itself is admission that the song is somewhat pop and if released under EMINEM then it makes Eminem a pop artist, because it is Eminem's song, with pop elements in it. It doesn't matter if the song had to accomodate for another artist - at the end of the day, the song is a singular piece of work and unless you make your own 'Eminem-only' edits to the songs, it will be listened to as such.

Rappers working with RnB and soul artists on RnB and soul songers make them RnB and soul artists because they are contributing to the art of creating a RnB or soul song. I play mostly classi rock and jazz music when I play instruments - but if I were to go and sit down and write a pop song on my piano or guitar right now, I would be a pop artist to an extent, because it is a pop song and I am an artist. If I even included elements of pop into a song, then I am a pop artist because I am the artist and I am creating pop music, simple as that.

Kanye's techno and classical parts of songs are samples and are highly reproduced into modern hip-hop sounds...but yes, one could argue for example that the "All Of The Lights" Interlude is classical. Just listen to it.

Pop music can have all of these things too...it just needs to have that sound to it.

No it can't. Pop is not just a sound in the same way hip hop isn't.

It's themes and styles and content.

None of Eminem's approach to themes and content can be classified as pop. And no pop ever approaches themes and content like Eminem does. Pop can touch on war, politics and all kinds of uncomfortable issues. But it does it in a safe, child-friendly, inoffensive way.

Given how totally unorthodox, in your face, ballsy, edgy and confrontation Eminem is as an artist, he as an artist, can never ever ever be called pop. It's the opposite. If you're going to call Eminem pop, you may as well throw the definition out the window and make up a new word.

To say pop cannot be thoughtful, poetic, or non-conforming is ridiculous. P!nk is rather individualistic and can make statements, even Eminem agrees. But she makes pop music.

Pop is mostly a sound and hip-hop is mostly a sound as well, that's why people listen to music. You wouldn't hit replay on a song you thought sounded like shit, would you? Themes and styles and content play into it as well but if Avril Lavigne in the earlier portion of her career wrote songs that were quite anti-pop in the message but were still pop songs, because they sounded like pop songs.

His themes and content may not often approach pop, but some songs do incorporate pop sounds and to an extent, pop lyrics (as in Not Afraid, already discussed). He could justifiably be called pop to an extent, though never moreso than he can be called hip-hop. He may be ballsy and raw and in-your-face but his songs are his art, not just his lyrics or delivery thereof. The song is the final product and piece of art, he has chosen those beats, he has chosen ever word, and he pretty much has a blank cheque at Interscope so you know they aren't forcing it - he has creative control (Shady Records) and his given all these things the go-ahead. 'Lighters' is a pop-rap song and Eminem is listed as one of the artists. Even Royce then has entered the world of pop music, even if it only represent the tiniest, most insignificant and indiscernible degree of his entire scope as an artist.

[JakeBlack]

Seduction worst song on the album?

[richard]

:o
Seduction worst song on the album?

I like it but it wouldn't even be in my top 10 songs off of Recovery...and I would pick 'Not Afraid' before 'Seduction'. And many would agree.