Part II: Eminem vs. All

[ThomasJ]

Nas > Everything mentioned in this thread, including Eminem, Immortal Technique, Sadistik, Copywrite, Lil B, 9/11, Simpsons, New World Order etc.

[xxTrigger1989xx]

Vanilla Ice is better than ANY rapper mentioned

[MikeNUFC]

@Lello - Let me get this straight - the government were planning to blow up the Twin Towers - so rather than just do it and makes sure no-one finds out, they put in subliminal messages into television programmes. For what? For the lols?

"We've got to keep this as secret as we can, no-one can find out. It's paramount that no-one thinks we did it"
"Okay..... let's put subliminal messages into TV shows. That makes perfect sense, right?"

However, there are some Illuminati/conspiracy theorist rappers that can actually rap well despite their stupid beliefs: Hopsin and Diabolic come to mind.

Add Lowkey and Talib Kweli to that. Especially Lowkey.

[One Mic]

seriously is the only white rapper people listen to on here Eminem?

I think all white rappers suck, and I dislike them all..... except for Eminem.

Yelawolf might be another exception, but only because Marshall signed him.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

nobody is better than Nas and Eminem.

this is the BEST FACT EVER.

[NicoleEM]

seriously is the only white rapper people listen to on here Eminem?

I think all white rappers suck, and I dislike them all..... except for Eminem.

Yelawolf might be another exception, but only because Marshall signed him.

I'd add Copywrite to the white rappers list lol.Anyway Eminem=Nas>>>>>>>>anyone

[dead prez]

I never said we should base them off one aspect. I just said that punchlines should be the last thing we use to judge their lyricism. You're insisting on its importance because it's the only way you can discredit Eminem.

Well yeah, Eminem sucks ballls at punchlines it's obvious he should stick with multies as that's his forte and never touch punchlines or attempt metaphors/similes again and leave them to rappers who can actually pull them off without sounding corny as fuck.

See, you can't even identify multis. You're not qualified to judge the quality of rhyming because you don't fully recognize it.

No, it's not his most complex song rhyme-wise, but then that's because it's Eminem we're talking about. You take the great rhyming out of 8 mile road and it doesn't work.

Which further goes back to my point that he has more complex rhymes when he does, I'll kill you verses rather than ones with meaning.

So you found one example where a rapper didn't have to make everything choppy to fit it in. Great. Of course, Jay-Z isn't huge on punchlines...that's probably why.

But I still gave an example right? To prove you wrong on that point that punchlines are nothing but useless filler on aimless freestyles, that can be done away with.

I don't remember asking for that, I just remember saying that the "punchline emcees" tend to disrupt their songs by cramming them in.

And that punchline proved your dumb absolute statement wrong right?

And if he weren't making a point of doing them now, you'd never know and probably wouldn't even be bringing it up...

But he's still doing them so no you can't just brush them off and ignore them as if he's not using them.

Nope, just pointing out the fact that the beat out-shines Jay-Z on that track.

It happens, what really made the song was the Prodigy sample.

Point was it's not a metaphor.

Answer the question do you know what it means and the genius of that line?

Doesn't change the fact that the metaphor itself isn't one Nas came up with. He referenced a commonly used metaphor.

Name another rapper that used that before Nas, I know Ghostface used it in Nutmeg so you're right it is rather common, but getting mad at Nas for using that line is like getting mad at Eminem for rhyming multies with common words that every rapper before him has used.

Nas is a "street poet." Eminem has a different background. Eminem makes allusions to medical terminology and celebrities. You can tell he watches the Discovery Channel and wasn't lying about reading the dictionary. But...he's white. He's not gonna rap about Malcolm X or African politics.

So you admit he is more well read? And Nas is one of the first rappers that raised the lyricism in rap with his word choice, after Rakin. You could tell he read the dictionary as well.

Because they're vague simply for the sake of being vague.

Or maybe you actually have to reasearch the lyrics to fully appreciate the song and can't be listened to at face value.

Racism=belief in a racial hierarchy.

Bringing up someone else's subconscious racism doesn't make the person who brought it up a racist. That's just purely illogical.

It does when you're inscecure about people not giving Eminem his props and have to play retarded appeal to motives as to why they don't think Eminem is the goat.

And was I wrong in determining what it was you were referring to?

Yes because they obviously aren't one and the same.

You've mentioned several times now that Eminem's punchlines suck.

Because they do even you admit that.

First of all, the loss to Juice was at 97 Scribble Jam, not the Rap Olympics. It went something like 6 overtime rounds before they decided on a winner.

Cool thanks for clarifiying, no it's not sarcasm.

Secondly, I wasn't talking about those freestyle battles. He was actually quite popular by that point (the fact that he was the runner up in both 97 SJ and the Rap Olympics attests to that), but his situation still looked grim because nobody wanted to sign the white guy.

And it still didn't occur to you that maybe the reason he lost the freestyles were because his opponents were better than him? And stillmatic already mentioned Jay z having a hard time getting signed and was able to produce his first album till he was 27 similar to Eminem. So this reverse racism you're referring to isn't exclusive to Eminem.

Ha. Right. The guy who made It's OK, Never 2 Far, and Backstabber was straight garbage.

Those were probably te only good songs on Infinite the rest were nothing but forced multies with his baby voice.

Funny enough...the biggest criticism he heard was that he sounded "too much like Nas and AZ" on Infinite. So much for "straight garbage"...

He copied their flow and didn't execute it properly he's much better with his Esham/Cage persona.

I'm not even talking about the Top 5, Top 10 lists. I'm talking about the ubiquitous "Eminem is overrated. There are many black rappers who are better than him skill-wise but they don't get the hype because they're not white and all over MTV" remarks.

Like I said earlier in terms of sales (I know you're not referring to it so hear me out before you yell non sequiter) one of the many reasons he got so famous was because of his topics which helped him explode rather than say someone like Mos Def, Nas, Black Thought different subject matter that won't appeal to suburban youth. (No I'm not saying they're better than him and don't feel like getting into that discussion).

The people who write this don't appreciate the genius of what Eminem does. They just make this remark without grasping even half of what he's doing in his music. This remark stems from the fact that he's the white guy on MTV doing music that is still predominantly black. These are the types of people who will insist Rakim has better multis than Eminem...for no other reason than Rakim is at or near the top of the list when it comes to BLACK rappers who are known for multis. In actuality, as good as Rakim is, there's no comparison. And that's an empirical judgment.

You're whole point that people say he's overrated because he's white can be applied to other rappers but for different reasons.

Pac overrated because he's dead
Biggie overrated because he's dead
Jay z overrated because Pac and Biggie are dead and he wouldn't be shit if they were still alive
Nas overrated because of illmatic.
Rakim overrated because he's a pioneer.

Do you see where I'm getting at people will always look for flaws to knock down the most famous rappers and try to grasp at straws as to why they're overrated, Eminem's happens to be his skin color.

I'm pretty confident in saying he was alluding to black rappers. Maybe he can come in here and claim otherwise, but he's been mysteriously absent.

I'm pretty sure some of the rappers he thinks are better than Eminem now are Diabolic and Copywrite, both white so no.

And he didn't just say, "Eminem isn't the greatest ever." He made the absurdly idiotic remark of saying, "the only thing Eminem was EVER good at is multis." Even you didn't agree with what he wrote. So naturally, when someone writes something THAT idiotic, I assume the worst; he's playing a racial balancing act.

Well there's no need to, assuming stupid shit like that is what got us into this whole argument in the first place.

You've probably listened to a few things and just made mental note. I doubt she's anywhere near your top "Most Played"...

O RLY?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107302
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107510

These were before my debate you with btw, so please stop with the retarded assumptions about who I do and don't listen to.

More professional?

Are you really going to get at me for my vocab?

That's the word you're going to use?

I think it's you who didn't take English class.

Yes, they make filler more entertaining...sometimes. For concept songs, I can do without. I think most people would agree.

I'l use an examples in Gihad by Ghostface.


Side of her face, and hair like "Something About Mary

She take a bone like a rib-eye steak at Ruth's Chris

Those two being similes which helps give life to your raps, really. Well you should really listen to the verse to get the full context of the lines.

So if I said, "God does not exist" first, the burden of proof would all be on me?

Sorry, doesn't work that way. Everyone in an argument has the burden of proof. This isn't the US judicial system.

No, but if you made a thread saying Rakim isn't a pioneer in rap or something like Illmatic isn't all that great, you have to have reasons as to why you feel that way.

You're making claims, too. The burden of proof is on everyone.

And I've been doing it.

Never said they were the be-all-end-all for lyricism. For someone who claims "straw man" so much, you sure do use it quite a bit.

Well it's what you seem to think takes precedence over everything else, so I assume you think it's the most important aspect of it.

You're reaching...

You don't think they're good rapper?

Prodigy fell off a while ago, but yes during his HOE days he rarely if ever used multies like last verse on Frontlines, rarely used multies but it's an incredible verse.

Guru I'll admit that the beats sometimes carried him (Mass Appeal), but he still had a great voice which is essential in rap who wants to listen to a rapper with a horrible voice?

Oh and swithc OC for Snoop Dogg, he was barely a lyricist but he relied on delivery and his smooth voice and charisma.

And I'm still saying - genius is always imitated.

Or it can be overlooked, and being imitated doesn't always equal genius

But that's not what it actually originated from.

Where did it originate from than?

Non-sequitur. That's just random gibberish. I'm sure they COULD write shit like that. Multis that don't make any sense don't do you any good.

But Nas and Jay can't write:

Then I got up and ran to the janitor's storage booth
Kicked the door hinge loose and ripped out the 4-inch screws
Grabbed some sharp objects, brooms, and foreign tools
This is for every time you took my orange juice
Or stole my seat in the lunchroom, and drank my chocolate milk
Every time you tipped my tray and it dropped and spilt

or

Coast to coast shows, he's known as the globe trotter
Lonely roads, God only knows he's grown farther
From home, he's no father
He goes home and barely knows his own daughter
But hold your nose, cause here goes the cold water
These hoes don't want him no more, he's cold product
They moved onto the next shmo who flows
He nose-dove and sold nada
And so the soap opera is told and unfolds
I suppose it's old partna
But the beat goes on
(da-da-dum, da-dum...)

More like false analogy you mean, and yes Nas and Jay can never write verses with as much multies and pull it off like Eminem, they excel at different aspects of lyricism which you already know.

NO. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

If something is great, it WILL be imitated. Period.

However, just BECAUSE something is imitated does not mean it's great art. Things that aren't great art can be imitated, too.

Like punchlines so there you have it.

So the aspect of having been imitated doesn't MEAN something is great. However, if something ISN'T imitated, it clearly couldn't have been great.

Or maybe it was overlooked and wasn't fully aprreciated.

Well, I think you're in the minority. I don't think most people want to hear the same punchline over and over again.

Sort of but I'll give you an example.

In the 7 minute freestyle with Big L and Jay z, Big L has the more ferocious multies and aggresive raps in his verses whereas Jay z relied more on clever lines, most people thought Big L outshined Jay z on that track but I'd honestly rather listen to Jay's verses.

Three of the Five you listed aren't even on MMLP.

All of them other than Drug ballad fall under the generic kill you verses though.

Seems to me like the TES rhyme schemes went over your head. Hell, the first verse of Till I Collapse basically ends this discussion.

Sing For the Moment's inverse rhyme schemes (which I alluded to in the "Eminem Rhymes People May Not Have Noticed" thread) also end this discussion.

Please explain because I thought all those I listed had godlike rhyming.

And did you put REMEMBER ME down? Eminem has one verse, and that's a marginal verse rhyme-wise by his standards.

He has one verse in Hellbound to, and you don't think it's a good verse to show off his rhyming?

You could, but people would be questioning whether they interpreted it correctly.

And guess what not everyone interpreted Kim the same way.

So apparently you think having songs that are easily understood is a bad thing.

No I just don't feel that we should discredit rappers who are booksmart and make constant allusions to various sources as pretentious.

Cursing out gays?

This song is a response to people who called him homophobic strictly because of a couple jokes he made in "My Name Is." He never "cursed out gays."

He made those jokes originally (along with many others that had to do with other people; i.e. NON-gays) because he comes from an area where that style of rap was prevalent (shock value lines). The entirely of D12 says/said things like that...of course, when Eminem does it he's "doing it for publicity"...not because that's the style of rap he grew up around or anything.

Barely anyone knows all the names of the members of D12 though, lol. And of course I know tons of rappers did it before Eminem, and didn't get as much heat as he did for it.

Yeah, damn you Eminem for making songs that reasonably intelligent people are able to actually understand.

Yo, you're whack, cuz everyone understands what you say
But when I get on the mic, I make milk out of clay
And I play, air guitar with a tube of toothpaste
And I say, "karate pencil case," and put it on tape

So are you saying we should just discard all rap songs which actually make you have to do research to understand the context of the song?

No, the website sucks because the people who try to explain these lyrics tend to be idiots.

I mean, look at this stuff:


Eyeless- He doesn’t see how these whack rappers find good int their music, which means he’s (also a play on “peerless” — can’t peer at things without eyes, now can you?)
*

You get "he can't see how these whack rappers find good in their music" out of "which means I'm eyeless?"


Tearless- Which means he has no regrets

You get "he has no regrets" out of "which means I'm tearless?"


Iris resides where my ears is- Pays attention to what he hears
*

How does his iris, a part of the eye, supposedly "residing where his ears are," refer to him "paying attention to what he hears?" You know how I interpreted it? I interpreted it as him saying his listeners can't actually see him (this line is from their perspective), so he has to make them "see" through their EARS, since that's all they have to go by.

But what do I know?


Blinded- He “sees” the music he hears, which sucks so bad it “blinds” him
*

LOL...what? You get "the music he hears sucks so bad it blinds him" out of him saying "which means I'm blinded?" Again...just MY interpretation here...he's saying he's blinded by the constraints he has with the communication...he and his listeners can't actually "see" each other, so he has to do his best to work around it using his other senses.


I'mma find it- he’ll find what makes people interested in whack rappers
*

Again, LOL @ this interpretation. Couldn't be about him finding a way to reach his audience or anything.


Veering- But not staying away from it, meaning his music isn’t gonna come near that whack stuff

Again, LOL @ this interpretation.

I won't deny they tend to reach quite a bit, but they also help you understand urban slang that the rappers use in their songs and tends to confuse people who aren't within the are (Ala Nutmeg Ghostface). It's also great for helping point out allusion rappers make to vaious sources.

[xxTrigger1989xx]

Damn, dead prez, that took up like half the page...

[dR3]

Alright we have a nice discussion going on again, moving it to the main section. Any "bullshit" posts will be deleted to keep the thread clean.

[Master Chief]

I thought this would have 20 pages by now.

[Satire]

I thought this would have 20 pages by now.

The IT one didn't even reach that in less than a day. It took like, 2-3. This one's growth was crippled because it was moved to Chit Chat so everyone went to sleep lmfao.

[Master Chief]

I thought this would have 20 pages by now.

The IT one didn't even reach that in less than a day. It took like, 2-3. This one's growth was crippled because it was moved to Chit Chat so everyone went to sleep lmfao.

Hopefully, now that it's in the Eminem section, we can get this shit moving

[RealSickLindley]

What's this Hopsin craze about?

No one sees him as any more than decent outside of this site, i don't know where it's come from.

But it's probably like Wayne hate, it becomes a Tr trend.

[Satire]

What's this Hopsin craze about?

No one sees him as any more than decent outside of this site, i don't know where it's come from.

But it's probably like Wayne hate, it becomes a Tr trend.

Hopsin actually has a good amount of buzz right now. Everyone I know who likes Hip Hop suddenly knows about him and are crazy, saying shit like "HE'S THE NEW EMINEM!!!!!" or "HE'S THE NEW TECH N9NE".

His buzz first came out through his self promotion on Myspace, then his videos reached Youtube and everyone just sees Sag My Pants and fall in love. That, and RAW is one of those albums that people pass around to their friends.

[xxTrigger1989xx]

What's this Hopsin craze about?

No one sees him as any more than decent outside of this site, i don't know where it's come from.

But it's probably like Wayne hate, it becomes a Tr trend.

Hopsin is extremely talented. A mix of old school Eminem and Tech N9ne, two rappers from my "top rappers" list. He deserves the praise he gets on this site, some of my friends who I hang out with like him, I've played a few songs from him. Raw is an amazing album