Last Verse of "Going Through Changes"...

[EminemBase]

Just listening to Recovery again, on "Going Through Changes" at the moment...

It's easy to take for granted his honesty and conviction sometimes as you're so used to it, listening to his music for this long.

But no other artist I can think of, or no other rapper at least can express themselves on such genuine life issues so realistically and convincingly, and so musically. Whenever I hear other great rappers even try to write very emotional or honest tracks they just sound corny and unconvincing, they don't convey the emotion like it's real, it feels phony and the writing always suffers. There are a few, like 2Pac and Xzibit, but Em is still superior.

If you take a step back and forget his genius standards he set in his prime and listen to it, it's pretty amazing. The last verse is beautifully written. Also, I think he's at his most honest ever on Recovery. On prior records such as this he makes the track in to more of a 'movie' like experience, think of like "When I'm Gone" or "Mockingbird", and Kim said their real life is nothing like that. Like, he exaggerates it and amplifies it for dramatic effect.

But with this song and much of Recovery, you can tell it's just his honest thoughts in the form of confessional lyrics. He puts himself down, calls himself out, absolves others of blame, it's just very honest and genuine. More so than ever I think. Where as even on The Eminem Show, there was still a lot of bravado and 'rapper talk' and slang and bullshit covering the cracks. But on Recovery he's more like a human being bearing all in moments.

I'm not normally a fan... well, I do like these kinds of tracks from time to time but feel that he's just flogging a dead horse now and wish he'd get more creative. But even so, easy to forget how impressive he is in this area of content. Great song.

[DanWS]

Going Through Changes is probably the closest I've heard him come to 2002-2003 Em, which I consider prime Em (even though I feel MMLP is his best ever work I don't feel he'd hit his musical peak yet). For me, the lack of emotional content he has put out since GTC is one of the factors in his decline post-Recovery.

p.s. Joe Budden is the only other artist to me that is as good as Eminem as writing emotional lyrics and expressing himself on such genuine life issues so realistically and convincingly.

[EminemBase]

Going Through Changes is probably the closest I've heard him come to 2002-2003 Em, which I consider prime Em (even though I feel MMLP is his best ever work I don't feel he'd hit his musical peak yet). For me, the lack of emotional content he has put out since GTC is one of the factors in his decline post-Recovery.

p.s. Joe Budden is the only other artist to me that is as good as Eminem as writing emotional lyrics and expressing himself on such genuine life issues so realistically and convincingly.

I wouldn't say a lack of emotional content is a reason for decline.

A lack of creativity is. An over abundance and reliance on puns is.

More emotional content is not the answer. It's seriously repetitive and a gigantic waste of his talents, he needs to expand beyond just rapping about his life like a documentary, it's tiresome now. He's so much more than that, he should be thinking much bigger.

And yeah Budden sprang to mind. I haven't listened to him at all but I've heard clips here and there and he sounds genuine, and I think it's because like Em... he's a seriously depressed individual (I'm bipolar and, I think Budden may be judging from his general demeanor in interviews, and thoughts etc.) so he's been to such lows that when he writes about it, it's very recent and real. But, depression is the key I think.

[DanWS]

I wouldn't say a lack of emotional content is a reason for decline.

To me it is though. I realise that a lack of emotional content doesn't account for the fact that he is in need of finding a new creative direction, but it's no surprise that his greatest songs (in my opinion) have mostly been very emotional. Lose Yourself, SFTM, The Way I Am, Going Through Changes, 25 To Life, Rock Bottom. I guess it depends what you primarily listen to music for - for me the biggest function music serves is catharsis, but I can appreciate that other people look to alternative features in music and appreciate picking apart the genius of writing more than perhaps I do.

But like I said, the lack of emotional content is just one of the factors for his decline since Recovery. Others would include his reliance on punchlines, many of which have been awful, and his willingness to compromise his flows in order to sound technically impressive.

And yeah Budden sprang to mind. I haven't listened to him at all but I've heard clips here and there and he sounds genuine, and I think it's because like Em... he's a seriously depressed individual (I'm bipolar and, I think Budden may be judging from his general demeanor in interviews, and thoughts etc.) so he's been to such lows that when he writes about it, it's very recent and real. But, depression is the key I think.

Listen to "Whatever It Takes", if you've suffered from depression I'd be amazed if you didnt grow to love that song.

[EminemBase]

I wouldn't say a lack of emotional content is a reason for decline.

To me it is though. I realise that a lack of emotional content doesn't account for the fact that he is in need of finding a new creative direction, but it's no surprise that his greatest songs (in my opinion) have mostly been very emotional. Lose Yourself, SFTM, The Way I Am, Going Through Changes, 25 To Life, Rock Bottom. I guess it depends what you primarily listen to music for - for me the biggest function music serves is catharsis, but I can appreciate that other people look to alternative features in music and appreciate picking apart the genius of writing more than perhaps I do.

I don't think his greatest are emotional. Some are, but the key to as to why... is reaction.

Eminem is a reactionary artist. Which is why The Marshall Mathers LP is such a masterpiece. As a reactionary artist, he couldn't of been in a better position leading up to that album, the amount of public bashing, criticism and fueding over him.

Same with "The Way I Am" and the pressure to make another hit. It's him reacting to a situation that stresses him out that creates brilliance.

But reaction can come out in far more interesting forms than straight confession. Writing your feelings down is plain Jane and, not very innovative. It's the most obvious route. And whilst Em can sometimes make it spectacular, it is primarily a waste of his talents I think.

Take something like "Criminal", that is far more compelling than any of his emotional tracks to me. Yes empathy is a key to a lot of art and resonance but, it's not the be all and end all. And given his knack for left-field wit, sporadic thinking, innovative rhyme schemes and superb voice acting and delivery... simply using that bundle of genius to write how depressed he is or how much shit he's been through is such a shame.

I'd much rather he be thinking up things like "Almost Famous" than GTC. Also, "Sing for the Moment" isn't really what I'd class as an emotional track, not in the same right as "Going Through Changes". He may be emotional in it, but he's pretty much always emotional, even when rapping about fictional things ("Kim").

"Sing for the Moment" is a social commentary track. It's a rap song about rap, the politics of rap, the hypocrisy and lunacy of censorship and the zeitgeist of his generation. It's so much more than an introspective track. But he's focused on hyper-realistic content for so long now, I wish he'd think abstract again, the possible ideas are... infinite. It's so frustrating.

[DanWS]

I don't think his greatest are emotional. Some are, but the key to as to why... is reaction.

Eminem is a reactionary artist. Which is why The Marshall Mathers LP is such a masterpiece. As a reactionary artist, he couldn't of been in a better position leading up to that album, the amount of public bashing, criticism and fueding over him.

For sure, but it is that reaction that generates emotion. You almost can't have reaction without emotion - they go hand in hand. I think the "reactionary" tracks you spoke of are what could essentially be referred to as his "angry" tracks. Which are emotional too, of course. His willingness to react to things in the past allowed him to generate emotion-filled tracks which addressed whatever it was that was bothering him. Since Recovery though, it's become apparent he is unwilling to act on his reaction and subsequently generate meaningful, emotional content. I think the last reactionary track he did was "The Warning" which is one of the best tracks he has brought out since his "comeback". But now that he has promised "no more drama from now on" he is having to find new avenues to explore - which oddly enough, worked with much of the content featured on Relapse, but hasn't with his post-Recovery crap. It's almost like he's shouting for nothing now, don't you think? Back in the day he used to shout because he was genuinelly angry (The Way I Am, Go To Sleep, Girls etc) but now the shouting almost doesn't have an explanation. Like, I'm tryna look at it objectively lol, why does he have to shout all the time now? Is it like a new demeanour that he wants to have? It's unconvincing. It's like since he is unwilling to make the reactionary music he once made and also the lack of more sad emotional content in his post-Recovery stuff, that he no longer can find much to talk about. And let's face it - he can't, lol. He's just relying on punchlines and pretty much talking about nothing throughout half of his new shit. The thing is, he managed to stay away from the emotional stuff in Relapse (besides Beautiful) by finding an alternative direction, and it worked. But now he is struggling to find an alternative, and the punchline-filled rubbish he's resorted to just isn't sounding good.

[EminemBase]

^ Yes but like I said, it's about how you fuel that reaction.

"Criminal" is a creative concept track, fueled by reaction.

Songs like "Going Through Changes" are obvious and repetitive now. It was okay with Recovery due to the past few years of addiction, but it's mundane now.

He had the totally right idea with Relapse. In his first big interview when he came back he said he didn't want to make it 'all about him now' which is why Relapse was like it was. Not this crock of shit about being 'loopy' from the drugs he gave to try and win fans back.

He recognized that the constant relaying of his issues had become cumbersome so was trying to be abstract and indulge in character. Then he listens to boring fans who wanted more boring emotion and same old shit from him. Such a shame.

Most of his best tracks are creative or innovative. Or conceptual. Rapping about your thoughts and feelings, and just relaying history as it happened, is not creative. This is supposed to be art, there are no rules. And that methodology is formal and uninteresting.

I don't need to listen to music to sort my issues out, I self-analyze enough, I want to be blown away with something original and inventive. Not self-loathing or realistic tribulations.

[nandish]

On prior records such as this he makes the track in to more of a 'movie' like experience, think of like "When I'm Gone" or "Mockingbird", and Kim said their real life is nothing like that. Like, he exaggerates it and amplifies it for dramatic effect.

Eminem has said in his book The Way I Am & in on VH1 Presents: Eminem - the Ultimate Encore, that every word in the song "Mockingbird" is true. And yes, in "When I'm Gone" he makes a lot of exaggerations, but just for the record, the "She's pilin' boxes in front of the door tryina block it" line is real - 50 Cent told MTV, in 2007, that Em doesn't like to tour as he likes being with his daughters & that Hailie was literally putting boxes in front of the door to try to stop him from going.

And I personally don't mind personal songs by Eminem, because most of them are good. I'd rather have him make more personal songs than bullshit songs with pathetic metaphors and puns (especially the unnecessary "shit/turd" ones & lines like the "A&W" line in All She Wrote). The Eminem Show was Eminem's most personal record in my opinion. Recovery has a lot of non-personal songs compared to TES.

[EminemBase]

^ I didn't say the songs were not factual.

When Kim said their lives are nothing like that she probably means the tone and reality of it. As in, he's totally indulging and making it bigger than it is.

Which is to be expected as everybody's problems usually seem bigger inside their own head anyway, so to him it probably is like that but she doesn't see it like that. But GTC is more realistic than those songs.

[Innovation]

I agree. That last verse is brutally honest and genuine. I really like this part of the last verse.

I still love your mother, that'll never change,
Think about her every day, we just could never get it together.
Hey, wish there was a better way, for me to say it,
But I swear on everything, I'd do anything for her on anyday.

A very honest statement and it also shows how much Eminem has matured through the years. It's a fantastic verse on an excellent song. From a technical standpoint, the writing is pretty impressive which is always a positive.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

threads like these are why i still visit this heaux!

[DanWS]

Songs like "Going Through Changes" are obvious and repetitive now. It was okay with Recovery due to the past few years of addiction, but it's mundane now.

Fair enough if you feel that kind of content is repetitive now. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. But I don't really understand how you can think it was okay with Recovery but say it's mundane now, since he hasn't made any of those emotional tracks since Recovery. Do you mean you'd think they'd be boring if he explored them again in the future? I think that's what you're saying.

Most of his best tracks are creative or innovative. Or conceptual. Rapping about your thoughts and feelings, and just relaying history as it happened, is not creative. This is supposed to be art, there are no rules. And that methodology is formal and uninteresting.

Well I realise our "best Eminem tracks" are going to be different. But I know one thing about my favourites - take the innovation out of them (the ones that actually were innovative) and they would suffer a little. But take the emotion out of them and they'd completely lose their stature. You even said yourself that Eminem is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, at relaying emotion on a track so convincingly, and you're right - it is his ability to tell a story that is possibly his biggest strength as an artist. Yea he is creative as hell, but I think if you look at his generally most-loved tracks then it is his ability to "speak" to the listener and make his audience feel what he is going through in those tracks that is the primary reason for the admiration they receive. I think that if most people loved Em primarily for his creativity, his ability to bend words and develop creative concepts then tracks like "Oh No" or "Stay Wide Awake" would be receiving praise on a similar level to "The Way I Am" or SFTM

[EminemBase]

^ I didn't say most people did love him for those things.

But safety doesn't come in numbers. Just because 'most' of his fans like X doesn't mean X is the thing he's best at or the most impressive thing he does.

A huge amount of his fans are girls and women for one thing, and a huge amount of them think "When I'm Gone" is his best track, because it's hugely emotional.

But it's a very basic song outside of the emotion that he's conveying and I think a joke to call his best, artistically. But, females are more emotional creatures, quite literally. So anything emotional or in that vein is obviously going to resonate with them so much more deeply.

But humans in general like making connections with other humans, and relating to each other. I find the process overrated and predictable personally, but I'm not much of a people person. People annoy me. I just think it's very easy to say things you've been through and know that other people will have been through them.

And then these drones go "OH MY GOD MAN... EMINEM BLINKED... I BLINK TOO, FUCK! SPOOKY, I RELATE TO THIS SHIT MAN!" it's like all they care about is if they've been through the same thing lmao. Which is partially why I hate these kinds of tracks too now as I can't disassociate those kinds of fans from the tracks in my mind.

As I'm just picturing them swooning over the shit. It's so predictable.

I feel that truly good taste or most truly good anything is minority anyway. Highly intelligent people are a minority, highly gifted people are a minority. And I think great taste and intelligence certainly go hand in hand generally speaking, once you come to terms with what 'good' means obviously. But that's why his more complex aims are sometimes lost on the mass of his fans. Hence, don't get appreciated fully.

Even people who love The Marshall Mathers LP, musically it's brilliant and people loved the outrageous lyrics but outside of the odd critic, I haven't seen many fans who truly get what he did with it. I'm sure there are plenty, I haven't seen them though.

And that's also partially why his emotional tracks are loved more. As 'most' of his fans probably aren't massively intelligent people. I'm sure a lot are but the MAJORITY probably aren't. You have a huge amount of girls fawning over his looks and love for his daughter, a huge amount who just find him catchy, and so on.

So I don't really envy what 'most' like about him anyway. I think that's unimportant when talking about what makes him great, and not a great source of value, due to the imbalanced bias towards more simplistic aims and subject-matter.

Also, in regards to emotion, I was speaking in broader terms, as in, any emotion in any context. I don't mean tracks where he shares his feelings, I mean like on "Kim" for example. He's an incredible voice actor, and that could be put to much more fascinating use and it's frustrating that he's not even attempting to top things like "Stan" conceptually or think that big. Like I say, just relaying his emotions... at this point (album no. 7)? I mean, come on.

[DanWS]

Nah I know what you're saying man. You prefer to observe, admire and disect the art/poetry in music more than someone like me, so you're always gonna be inclined to prioritise innovation, creativity and revolutionary concepts over emotional content. Whereas I, and people who listen to music for primarily the same reasons as me, prioritise how relateable and penetrable a song is, on a more personal level. I think whichever way you look at it, Eminem needs to find a new direction to go in now. I hope the era of the "shout, shout, punchline, shout" is at an end (though I'm guessing we'll get at least 2 more occasions of that via the SH album and Yelawolf album), and he will go back home out of the spotlight, find some new inspiration and not come out with a new album for at least another year.

p.s. sorry for the short reply but its a fucking nice day outside today which is a rare occasion in this country and i wanna sit out.

[EminemBase]

^ Yeah well as long as he keeps changing, I'm happy. I like this period of yelling puns. First of all I love the yelling, on occasion it's eargasm to me ("Above the Law", "Take from Me", "Living Proof"). As for the puns, many are bad but not so bad they ruin songs. And he comes out with some good ones too.

I'm very happy he's doing constant puns actually as... he ALWAYS changes every album so no state or period in his music is ever permanent, he always evolves. And right after Relapse I was literally speaking to another member from here and wishing he would just do non-stop wordplay and do lyricism for the sake of lyricism.

I can't believe how lucky my wishes have been actually. Before Relapse came out I literally was hoping, though NEVER expecting, for absolute psychotic lyricism and slaughter and... it couldn't of been more on the money. Then I wanted punchlines and wordplay and he's fucking obsessing over it.

I like it as it gives me different versions of Eminem to tap into at anytime. Aka I can listen to a story, indulge in depression, listen to wordplay or anger etc. I like that he does so many styles and ideas that you can like compartmentalize his music.

So, I'm enjoying the attempts at clever wordplay whilst they last as prior to recently, he never really did much of it. He used to do the odd bit, maybe a word here or there, but he was often very literal. Or used irony and abstract wit instead. Which he was genius at but I'm glad he's gone all out on puns for a while as we haven't had it since Infinite...

Which to me signals he's fallen in love with hip-hop in the purest way again. Which is what Mr. Porter seemed to imply and he said Em has thrown himself into it like it's 1996 again.

Of course I want a new direction now but I'm definitely glad I have a chunk of puns and rap for rap's sake. I want him to max it out a bit further first though... after hearing the D12 "Fame" and the "Above the Law" verse, that's proven to me the shouting still hasn't been fully utilized or maxed-out yet and I wanna hear it totally hammered and perfected. I also want him to push his puns to max, make them connect better... which he has been doing on occasion.

Then I want reinvention. And creative ideas.

And yeah, wish I could go drink beer and get high.