Master Chief wrote:Of course but how in the world is it crazy to consider DIC in the and same league as MMLP? I never said it was better and in fact after listening to MMLP again today, I would say MMLP is definitely better. But, the comparison is still reasonable and not a laughable one like comparing Tha Carter III to Reasonable Doubt.
It's crazy because
Death Is Certain is a standard rap album. There's nothing original or compelling about it. It's just Royce, Royce the rapper talking about standard 'rapper shit' in a pretty standard way. It's not groundbreaking, it's not exciting. It's just an album.
Where as
The Marshall Mathers LP is both of the aforementioned things that
Death Is Certain is not. Subject-matter aside, even the lyricism... it's just not comparable. Eminem's wit, ideas and rhyming on MMLP are out of this world. Royce's are just good.
But there's plenty of guys who can rap good. Eminem could write an album like
Death Is Certain in his sleep. It's just 'life shit' and 'rapper talk'. Where as Royce could NEVER write an album like
The Marshall Mathers LP. It's conscious, it's meta - by the fact Em speaks to listeners directly and addresses very relevant real world issues and makes them part of his art, so the album feels 'alive' and alert.
Not to mention the production and structure. On Eminem's performance alone it's another world. On the subject-matter alone it's another world. But then take the production and structure. You don't hear any basic choruses or things you hear on other rap albums. It's a big, bouncy, loud, non-stop lyrical assault course. It totally demands your attention, and sounds insanely crisp and musical.
Death Is Certain, doesn't. It has decent production but is just a collection of basic tracks with music and ideas you hear on other albums. There's nothing special about it.
Some critics summed MMLP up better than I could...
"Not every listener will feel what it's trying to do, but anyone with ears will agree that it's doing it"
"Exceptionally witty and musical, discernibly thoughtful and good-hearted, indubitably dangerous and full of shit"
"A work of art whose immense entertainment value in no way compromises its intimations of a pathology that's both personal and political"
"Indefensible and critic-proof, hypocritical and heartbreaking, unlistenable and undeniable"
Death Is Certain doesn't come close to conjuring up those kinds of thoughts or urge that kind of reaction. It's a small, limited album.
The Marshall Mathers LP is a big, big, ambitious, daring, ballsy, original, intelligent piece of art.
There's no comparison.
It's not as laughable as your example, but it is laughable.
Master Chief wrote:Sure. But, the impact doesn't really make an album better than an other. What caused the impact like the use of irony and satire is something that MMLP definitely has over DIC.
Again, no - the impact doesn't make the album better. But
The Marshall Mathers LP is a totally unique situation. The impact and the album are mutually exclusive, you can't have one without the other as the album is designed to cause a reaction.
And that does make the album better. Because it's a concept album, carried out and executed and caused a real world reaction, through sheer execution. That's not an easy thing to do and most people who try just fall flat on their face. As they're not smart enough and can't push the right buttons.
The themes of the album, and how they're executed make it better.
Death Is Certain isn't ambitious, artistic, big, daring, none of those things. And those things do make an album better, as it means the artist thinks bigger and the material is more edgy, relevant and noteworthy.
I don't find
Death Is Certain noteworthy at all and even prefer
Street Hop over it.
Master Chief wrote:Yes. Never really said otherwise. I very much agree.
Well if you agree that
The Marshall Mathers LP is one of the most intelligent rap albums ever made, and think
Death Is Certain is close to it... surely you think
Death Is Certain is one of the most intelligent rap albums ever made? or one of the best?
I'm sorry but, I don't even consider
Death Is Certain a classic never mind one of the best albums ever made. I mean, are you serious... come ON man. There's SO many albums better than
Death Is Certain, it's barely noteworthy. Again, I even think
Street Hop is better.
You know when you hear a classic to you as it gives you a certain 'buzz' when you hear it. I got / get that buzz with all of Eminem's first three albums, I get that buzz with
Illmatic, I get that buzz with
Black on Both Sides... but I do not get that buzz or near it with
Death Is Certain. I find the themes simplistic, the execution good but, unexceptional and the overall effect, dull. And he's a bit repetitive on it, with little innovation or originality. So, there's not much there to justify it being a standout album in any way to me. Let alone close to MMLP.
The Marshall Mathers LP is a rare, zeitgeist-capturing album. It was the album of a generation for a reason, it spoke to a youth, it embodied angst and frustration, carried the flag for free speech and ousted political hypocrisy. In a total genius way.
Death Is Certain is just... a rap album.
Master Chief wrote:This is also true. Royce has never been that type of rapper, with that kind of mind.
Well that's why I can't consider his material close then.
Not that everybody has to be a satirical genius, but - they need to have a spark about them to me. Royce was, is and will always be a great MC. But in terms of character, innovation and the things which make you an important artist, he doesn't have much going for him to me.
At his best, he sometimes makes it in my Top 10 as an MC, and I am a fan of him. But, as an all-time artist? he's barely worth mentioning. Yeah he has his moments, "Part Of Me" was a welcomed, chilling little idea, so there's something inside of him but... he hasn't let much out so far. And certainly not enough to justify being mentioned alongside Eminem.
I mean what the hell on
Death Is Certain is worth mentioning as much as "Stan" or "Kim"?. It's not just about being funny or a 'certain type' of artist. I mean seriously, REALLY consider "Stan" and "Kim", and the voice acting and how they're executed and how incredible their effect is. And how powerful they are. Then, you really think any song on
Death Is Certain deserves mentioning with them?...
If so, I just cannot grasp how somebody can think that. There's nothing on the album (DIC) that is justifiably edgy or... something unheard of.
Master Chief wrote:Royce can be a great artist when he tries to. Most of the time Royce does not show that side of him but from time to time he shows glimpses of a true artist. Remember, the reason Eminem got the reactions he got was ALSO because of his fame, if Royce had done something similar to MMLP it wouldn't have the same impact. Yes, I know Royce never has done anything similar. But, who the fuck does? You can't expect every album to get a million reactions from every cardinal direction.
No Eminem got that reaction because of the MATERIAL. The material MADE him famous.
The Slim Shady LP only sold 283k in its first week. And that was in 1999, when record sales were HUGE and he was the 'next big thing'. That's less than Drake sold with his debut IN 2010!
Eminem then became huge because once that first edgy, original album connected, he capitalized on the reaction and made art out of it. If something isn't worthy of a reaction it won't get it. Many people try and have tried to be offensive and edgy but simply fall flat on their face. Because it's too see-through and not executed artistically enough to resonate.
Public Enemy and other rap groups got reaction. Because they thought 'big' also.
It's not about the reaction, even though the reaction to MMLP makes the album a statement, and something else - as that was its aim - even if nobody at all reacted it'd still be a masterpiece. His lyricism, ideas and execution are genius, regardless. So forget the fame, doesn't matter. Album is still incredible and in a different league of albums to
Death Is Certain.
Other rappers don't / didn't get the reaction because they weren't clever enough. They're too blatant in their attempt and can't flip things in the right way. Where as Em, embraced criticism, and in a realistic, political and daring way BECAME everything he was accused of through compelling music and indulgence in character.
And made people constantly question his motives. Royce and nobody else I've heard has ever done that, to that degree. Em played it like a constant ping pong game between good and evil in his own brain, for the world to hear. And he was very specific and realistic.
It's because it felt so genuine and real that it got the reaction. And because he was addressing real world issues and pushing incredibly touchy buttons.
Other rappers are vague and just babble about cliche shit that the last rapper said. Em powerfully communicated to the world, in a very clear, crisp manner.
So no, Royce wouldn't of gotten the reaction. And he wasn't as famous for a reason. Because he was not compelling and possess' none of the qualities that Eminem did in creating his material, and because he didn't create material worthy of a huge reaction. Any huge reaction.
Master Chief wrote:Eminem's. THEN, you go on to say Royce's flow isn't nearly as good as Eminem's which I find insane and could be categorized as wrong.
No, it's not wrong.
Flow is about more than speed. In his prime, Eminem was always perfectly on-time, on-beat and incredibly musical. He has a firm grasp of melody. Which is why he came up with so many original melodies in his production.
Royce doesn't have that same grasp and isn't a musical mind like Em is. He's just a very good rapper. They're not comparable at all.
Royce has never become a beat like Em does. He can rap complex, fast and impressive flows yes, but he doesn't create legendary and memorable flows like Em did. The "Lose Yourself" flow for example is legendary. There's a constant forward momentum and structure.
Royce is never as consistently tight as that, he goes back and forth and sometimes creates a flow that is outside of the beat. The flows are nearly always on-point but I've heard him slightly stretch words or speedily fit words in before. Where as prime Em never did that, because the lyrics were written absolutely perfectly for the flow.
He doesn't create intense, musical, melodic flows that you can recite in your head like music itself and which become a staple to the song. Not to me. Eminem's great gift was his flow. He took it to new heights and did things on the mic that were incredible.
Why do you think Royce gives so many nods to Em. He's paid homage to numerous Em flows, "Lose Yourself" on
Death Is Certain for one, and you INSTANTLY recognize it, due to the structure and you know he's imitating the lyrics of course. But you could spit entirely different words to some Eminem flows and still know what song it is.
Royce has never created anything as close as memorable as that. And that's what a good flow is: memorable, melodic, on-point and musical.
Em's "Dead Wrong" flow too. Em used to created incredibly memorable, lasting flows. They were like little works of art within themselves due to the structure, rhythm and delivery. And yes your voice does matter, as Em separates styles and flow through voice where as aside from the odd bit of shouting, Royce always sounds the same. So he's not as entertaining, melodic or memorable.
Master Chief wrote:Really? Name 5 Eminem songs with better flows than "Royce Is Like".
1. Renegade
2. Bully
3. Criminal
4. The Way I Am
5. Business
You probably just think Royce's flow is the best because of smoothness. It's smooth and has a nice forward momentum, and is well-structured. But he's not as compelling or tight, or melodic. It's just not as good to me.
And I know you like to separate delivery and voice from flow but, they're all part of it to me. Because people think 50 Cent has a great flow because he's smooth. But he still sounds awful to me because he slurs and lazily delivers shit, and lazily fits words into bars fast or stretches them out... so it's a terrible flow to my ears.
And because Royce mostly remains flat-toned and can't do anywhere near as much with his voice, it's 'not as good' to my ears. He's not incredibly exciting to listen to, just objectively, to my ears. And sounding compelling is part of a good flow in my books, it's not just about speed or smoothness. As all of the greats were compelling. 2Pac was compelling, Rakim was compelling. They all put so much effort into communication, and emphasis and delivery, it's all part of it.
Also "The Way I Am"
SHITS on that flow. Again, legendary flow. It's like a fucking bulldozer flow, so overwhelming and unstoppable, and structured. And satisfying.
Master Chief wrote:I didn't say 100 times as an insult. Eminem is your favorite artist so it would only be fair that you have listened to his album around 100 times. I have. Honestly, you can come off as really sub-conscious when called a Stan in anyway. I wasn't even calling you a Stan... I was saying that I doubt you are nearly as informed about Royce as I am. As I have listened to Royce's material as many times as I have Eminem's.
No no no. The subconscious part is silly, go back and read the things you wrote. You, like anybody who gets into a debate about Eminem vs. somebody on the side against Eminem CONSTANTLY assume and rely on "oh it's just because it's Eminem" as a fall-back.
You said to me things like, it's crazy to say any other artist is close to Eminem. Now, not once did I even mention anybody other than Royce. So you're saying I'm defending Eminem for the sake of it and would say that NOBODY in the history of music is comparable. And that's ridiculous.
So that is implying the old 'Stan argument', just because I disagree with you.
As for being as informed on Royce, no I'm not as informed on him as I am on Eminem. But that has fuck all to do with judging a flow. Or material. As I've heard
Death Is Certain a lot and it's hardly an immense puzzle to figure out is it. What you hear is what you get.
So that's a terrible cop-out to say 'oh you haven't been listening to Royce as long so aren't qualified to say his flow isn't as good' = THAT is a 'Stan argument', in favour of Royce. It's silly. If Royce was an incredibly complex artist with an immense catalog and made incredibly conscious, political, edgy, groundbreaking music which could catch you off guard or give you different perceptions and I'd only checked out the odd song... you'd have a point.
But he isn't. He's a normal rapper (in terms of subject-matter), with normal ideas, nothing out of the ordinary or extraordinary. And he's got some nice technical skills. As in, he's great at rhyming and flow. But, I don't need to dedicate my life to him to figure that out, or judge it.
Master Chief wrote:Okay. I hate to have to use other sources/opinions to backup my argument but why is Royce known as a flow rapper and Eminem isn't? Why do you think Eminem got demolished on Fast Lane and Take From Me? Royce's flow on Take From Me is flawless. His last 4 lines are amazing flow-wise.
How the fuck is Eminem not known as a flow artist lmao. He totally is. That's always been one of his biggest elements. If people didn't expect perfect and incredible flows from Eminem why do you think all his fans are complaining so much at some of the new flows? it's an expectation with Eminem.
Whenever a new Em album comes you expect - a new style and a slew of new, exciting flows. He's ABSOLUTELY a flow rapper.
As for Em getting demolished on "Fast Lane" and "Take From Me" - firstly, he only got 'demolished' on SOME of "Fast Lane" and that was more LYRICALLY than flow-wise. Because depending on the structure of your lyrics and how many rhymes you have in there, dictates how quickly and manically you may be able to flow a certain section of your verse.
Just like Royce got "slaughtered" on the first part of "I'm On Everything". But that's because Royce was fucking around and not trying to do what Em did in that part. He simply was spitting with a different motive, just like some of "Fast Lane" with Em.
And, on the second verse, at one point Royce's flow is out of this world. And Eminem's (on the second) isn't as good, because he just wrote stupid lyrics and did that stutter shit. He didn't try to flow like that, you always have stand-out moments on good songs and Royce had the stand-out moment on "Fast Lane". Doesn't mean he's a better flow-artist though. And Em's flow on the first verse was fantastic.
If Lil Wayne outshined Em for a few lines on a track
now would that mean Lil Wayne is officially a better lyricist than Eminem? no. It'd mean Eminem got outshined and in that moment they said some things that were more impressive than the things Eminem said.
As for Em being 'demolished' on "Take From Me", I totally disagree. Em's flow on that was fucking brilliant, and his verse was a lot better too. And Em's closing lines are epic and, the way that whole verse is flowed and delivered is just great.
Also, Em's "Above the Law" flow > Royce. Royce can't flow like that. Royce can flow incredibly fast etc. but doesn't sustain that level of... powerful, memorable sort of... structure. When Em is like "IS THE ONLY WAY I'LL SAY I AM BUSH / OUTLLLANNNNDISH, THESE WORDS ARE WEAPONS THAT I BRAAANNDISH" - it's insanely satisfying and on-point. More-so than anything Royce spit on the EP.
Also, Em's flow on the D12 albums... I have no idea how you can say Eminem is not a flow artist. That's fucking madness. That's part of the reason he's so successful, because his flows are so insanely catchy, memorable, melodic and crisp. He's a musical communicator.
Master Chief wrote:Lil Wayne has a horrible delivery but on Tech N9ne's track "Fuck Food" he had a pretty good flow. His delivery was subpar as usual but he flowed well. Of course, if you slur your words like you claim 50 does then it's gonna sound horrible. But, did Royce do anything like that on "The Most Interesting Man"? A song with an insanely fast flow? No he didn't. I definitely separate delivery from flow like I believe it is supposed to be.
Who said Royce did slurr his words? I never, did I? nope.
I said IF you do 'that', using slurring as an example. To point out, if another element of your communication is bad, the flow still sounds bad. Because your flow is done using your voice, so if the voice isn't enjoyable to listen to, the flow isn't enjoyable.
Now, Royce's voice is fine, but he does not command the same attention to the ear or brain that Eminem does. And that's part of the flow, delivery and flow are separate things but I don't believe you can truly separating them when debating flow. Because unless every aspect is enjoyable, the overall effect is lost. To me anyway.
I'm a Nas fan too for example and he has a great flow but, I can still appreciate why some find him boring due to his voice alone. It's monotone and flat and he doesn't excite the mind with his communication. Delivery is definitely PART of flow, even if technically separate. It's a package. And Em beats Royce in almost every department of
the flow package.
When Em raps fast he still makes it exciting and he's incredibly crisp. I'm not talking about now before you mention "Won't Back Down" or something. As he's purposely yelling, so it's not a lack of ability, he's just trying to sound different.
But, "Buffalo Bill" for example. On that third verse. So incredibly smooth and crisp. And animated, Em's flow is animated and exciting. He toys with the beat, and toys with the ear.
Master Chief wrote:Royce and Eminem have very different flows. Royce is for the most part a lot smoother and always takes 100% control of the beat. Eminem is more rhythm based. Royce is better at fast flows too. I prefer Royce's flow but I feel like Eminem's flow DOES add a cinematic and "big" feeling to his songs if that makes sense. Example being Lose Yourself. So, I acknowledge this as well but I feel like saying isn't on the same level flow-wise just isn't true.
But that's exactly why he's not in the same league to me.
I don't care how smooth you are, if you're not exciting to listen to, or compelling... you're shit. As if you're not trying to be those things, what are you trying to be? nobody wants to be boring, or dull, or generic. And Eminem is the opposite of those things with his flow.
He puts himself into a different category through his flows and delivery BECAUSE of how compelling he sounds. When you listen to an Eminem song or album it's like delving inside Eminem's brain for a short while, it's like a mini audio movie.
So even if Royce can be better at fast flows, doesn't make him a better flow-artist to me. There's many elements to a good flow, and Eminem is best at most.
Master Chief wrote:Eminem was groundbreaking because he was famous. If Royce did the same things Em did, it wouldn't have any impact.
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Why WAS he famous though? he was famous BECAUSE he was groundbreaking. Nobody is famous and then 'groundbreaking because they're famous' that makes no fucking sense. Fame doesn't make people groundbreaking. Nas was groundbreaking too, because of what he did with
Illmatic. He took skills and presentation of hip-hop to a new place. But he wasn't HUGE or as huge as Eminem.
Eminem was groundbreaking for his material, no other reason. And yes if Royce did those things he would have impact, if anybody did those things they'd have impact. It's the material that caused the impact, not the fact he's white, or had blonde hair or any other stupid claims of his success.
These are trivial things that do not make a human being groundbreaking. Eminem blew hip-hop to piece, with original, compelling, fresh, cinematic music. Anybody who does that will get that attention. So what you're saying is ridiculous. "Stan" is as incredible as it is regardless of any other aspect. It's the MUSIC.
Master Chief wrote:It just seems odd that I've seen you praise Royce a lot whether it comes to old BME verses or his old material and now suddenly Royce is just a "decent rapper".
Yeah, decent. Decent does not = groundbreaking.
I think he's a very decent rapper. That does not make him a groundbreaking artist or in the same league as one. It just makes him a decent rapper.
I also disagree with everyone saying Royce is a much better rapper now. Not to me. Maybe technically with his flows and everything but the Royce on the old Bad Meets Evil tracks had a magical spark and gave a PRIME Eminem a run for his money.
Where, I don't think anything on
Death Is Certain or most recent stuff gives Eminem a run for his money. It's just all about his dick, fame and guns. It's very basic stuff. The only noteworthy aspect at times, is his flows. But ideas are more important. And Royce has never contributed any truly original or exceptional ideas to rap. Eminem's contributed many.
Master Chief wrote:I never said any of this. What the fuck are you talking about? I never said you overrated him or even implied that. What do you know? Another unneccsary paragraph that EmBase adds to his colossal essay.
WTF, yes you did!
You said "it's obvious" that I am overrating Eminem because he is also in my Top 10 and because I'm saying Royce is not close to him. So what the fuck ARE YOU talking about.
QUOTE =
Master Chief wrote:You listed Royce in your Top 10. I don't understand. It's obvious that you're overrating Eminem, in that case.
Go check it yourself. On your huge post on page 10. Right at the bottom.
Master Chief wrote:But, you praise Royce A LOT.
Yes, as a RAPPER. Not as an artist.
As an artist, he's unexceptional. Eminem is one of the most compelling artists in hip-hop history. Royce, isn't even the most or one of the most compelling artists of the last five years. There's people coming out every day that are more interesting and unique than Royce.
Royce is a fantastic rapper, but there's a huge difference between that and being a fantastic artist. He's just a great craftsman but doesn't add much else.
