Tech N9ne...

[King Lance]

I completely disagree. It's subjective, so it doesn't really matter, but I put flow and rhyme above all else when listening to music. Meaning those who you consider to be the greatest are probably nothing like those on my list.

My point is that I don't think you get to say this as a fact.

@fifflaren I didn't see where he said Tech was a good lyricist because of his rhymes and flow, but I think it takes a good lyricist to write something of substance that rhymes and flows well, right? The distinction you guys are trying to make is trivial.

If he says that rhyming and flow ARE a part of lyricism, then you can bring up how Tech compromises what he's saying in order to rhyme and flow.

If he says that rhyming and flow AREN'T a part of lyricism, then you can directly attack the lyrics.

You don't need him to concede on that point to win the argument.

If you guys are just arguing over the definition of lyricism.....well... carry on, lol.

But if it IS a part of lyricism you can still say that other lyricists compromise any sophisticated rhyming or flows for to make sure they stay comprehensive. Like I said, even if it's just a little bit.

Lyrics are one of the most important aspects in rap... hip hop is about to connecting people, inspiration, communication, emotion...

Tupac, Biggie, Jay-Z, Rakim, Nas, Scarface,.. all of them are considered as the Goats and Most of them aren't even using complex rhymes schemes in their songs
Rap is about being lyrical and technical, how can you be a good rapper if you don't have the full package ? All these rappers have great lyrics and don't compromise the technical aspect of rap because all of them have amazing flows.

One of the only complex rhymers considered as a goat is Eminem and he has been criticized a lot these last years because of his lyrics

[Solace]

[Elision]

Lyricism is your message and how well you are conveying it. Through creativity, word choice, word play, metaphors, similes, etc. None of that has anything to do with whether or not the words you are using rhymes.

Your definition is just off bro. Lyricism is written words in music. Nothing more. There doesn't have to be a message, creativity, metaphors or anything. You're making shit up at this point.

What I'm implying is that if rhymes are present in said lyrics, they are then part of lyricism. Just as much as the message is. And just as much as the word play is. These are all spices that belong to the same recipe.

Elision are you saying rap is the only genre with good/great lyricism? Cos that's fuckng retarded, real talk.

No no no, you misread me. I'm saying it's subjective. My favorite lyricists are those who prioritize flow/rhyme. Yours may not be. So making a list of "the greatest" is moot.

[Ku53v]

My point is that I don't think you get to say this as a fact.

he actually thinks critics' opinions are facts lol

[Elision]

My point is that I don't think you get to say this as a fact.

he actually thinks critics' opinions are facts lol

well see you don't get to have a discussion passed that point.

[classthe_king]

Well you're wrong because lyricism is not written words in music. By definition lyricism is, 'An artist's expression of emotion in an imaginative and beautiful way; the quality of being lyrical." Rhyming is just how the words sound and are included because they help the lyrics flow. If anything rhyming is a subcategory of flow, but certainly does not pertain to lyricism or the meaning of the words.

[Willy]

@Class... on that same note a person may not be interested in listening to you if you don't flow/rhyme well - thus affecting artist's ability to convey the message. Rhyme makes your lyrics memorable... something triggers in the brain when a rhyme is heard and it's pleasing.. it's a valuable tool for a writer to use. Also, 'word choice' is often influenced by whether or not words rhyme, hence the current bane of youtube rappers.

[classthe_king]

@Class... on that same note a person may not be interested in listening to you if you don't flow/rhyme well - thus affecting artist's ability to convey the message. Rhyme makes your lyrics memorable... something triggers in the brain when a rhyme is heard and it's pleasing.. it's a valuable tool for a writer to use. Also, 'word choice' is often influenced by whether or not words rhyme, hence the current bane of youtube rappers.

That's why a good rapper needs to be both a good lyricist and a good rhymer with good flows. They are all a subcategory of rap but they are not one category. Delivery has just as much to do with how much a listener pays attention as rhymes and flows. Is delivery now apart of lyricism?

[King Lance]

My point is that I don't think you get to say this as a fact.

he actually thinks critics' opinions are facts lol

I really don't care if critics like nas, Tupac or not.

Is there a coincidence if the best lyricists like Tupac, Nas, Rakim, Biggie and Prime Jay-Z are considered as some of the best rappers ever ? I don't like all of them but there is a consensus that says that these guys are the goats.

And if the best lyricists are often "considered" as the goats, it probably proves that:
Rap = a musical genre, Music = Culture, emotion, connecting people >>> It's a form of communication.

Imo, being technical is important (voice, flows, rhythms, cadence, rhyming,..) but you can't be a good rapper if you aren't a good lyricist

[Willy]

@Class, yeah the distinction between a good rhymer/lyricist isn't as obvious to me..especially in rap. It takes a good lyricist to write uncompromised content with dope rhymes. To me rhyme isn't impressive on it's own.. it's just repetition of similar sounds. You can't call someone a good rhymer without considering lyrics.'

-edit-

Ight I'm out bros, carry on without me and stay true to yourself.

[Accor]

It takes a good lyricist to write uncompromised content with dope rhymes. To me rhyme isn't impressive on it's own.. it's just repetition of similar sounds. You can't call someone a good rhymer without considering lyrics.'

this is why tech is bad

'mad at me me understandable, cannibal shoot an animal out of a cannon and have him catapult at an adult'

shit

Imagine goin' from bein' a no one to seein',
everything blow up and all you did was just grow
up emceeing

incredible

[classthe_king]

@Class, yeah the distinction between a good rhymer/lyricist isn't as obvious to me..especially in rap. It takes a good lyricist to write uncompromised content with dope rhymes. To me rhyme isn't impressive on it's own.. it's just repetition of similar sounds. You can't call someone a good rhymer without considering lyrics.'

-edit-

Ight I'm out bros, carry on without me and stay true to yourself.

You keep coming back to this argument but it's wrong. It takes a good rapper to have uncompromised content with dope rhymes. It takes a good lyricist to have good lyrics. That's all. As we've already said, there are great lyricists from other genres that barely rhyme at all.

[King Lance]

Glad you brought up Rakim actually. He's been voted the number 1 lyricist and talked about on greatest lyricist discussions everywhere. Here's what he thinks lyrics (at least to some degree) are. This is from Lyrics of Fury:

Program into the speed of the rhyme, prepare to start
Rhythm's out of the radius, insane as the craziest
Musical madness MC ever made, see it's
Now an emergency, open-heart surgery
Open your mind, you will find every word'll be
Furier than ever, I remain the furture
Battle's tempting...whatever suits ya!
For words the sentence, there's no resemblance
You think you're ruffer, then suffer the consequences!
I'm never dying-terrifying results
I wake ya with hundreds of thousands of volts
Mic-to-mouth resuscitation, rhythm with radiation
Novocain ease the pain it might save him
If not, Eric B.'s the judge, the crowd's the jury
How do I plead to homicide?
Lyrics of Fury!

imo, it's not his most lyrical song but it's still an amazing verse tbh.
he can say a lot of things with less words and he has a great flow. Damn he doesn't even compromise the nature of his sentences and he keeps repeating the same rhythms... how many rappers can spit like that today?

My favorite lyricist is still Tupac but I wouldn't be mad if someone said that Rakim was better

[Willy]

I already said I'm talking about rap though... Regardless, what is a 'good rhymer' to you? How can someone be a good rhymer without looking at lyrics? There are great lyricists who have written great songs without metaphors... that point isn't conducive to you winning the argument.

[Elision]

By definition lyricism is, 'An artist's expression of emotion in an imaginative and beautiful way; the quality of being lyrical."

Where in the fuck did you find this definition? Because I've spent the last 10 minutes looking for it on google, and so far nothing even close. Your argument falls through otherwise.

According to wiki and online dictionaries (I don't physically own one), lyrics are the composition of words within music or poetry. Not 'the beautiful expression of emotion and imagination'. Lyrics are the just the words dude.