Classic Hip-Hop vs. Underground Hip-Hop

[Devil'sAdvocate]

the biases class has is so fucking stupid,he debates from one side.

wanna thank cream though,nikka holdin it down!

[classthe_king]

the biases class has is so fucking stupid,he debates from one side.

wanna thank cream though,nikka holdin it down!

What the fuck

He picked a side, I picked a side. Of course I'm going to debate from only my side What kind of fucking idiot debates for the other person.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

the biases class has is so fucking stupid,he debates from one side.

wanna thank cream though,nikka holdin it down!

What the fuck

He picked a side, I picked a side. Of course I'm going to debate from only my side What kind of fucking idiot debates for the other person.

lol how dumb off you,you throw off every point he comes with using your bullshit.

[classthe_king]

the biases class has is so fucking stupid,he debates from one side.

wanna thank cream though,nikka holdin it down!

What the fuck

He picked a side, I picked a side. Of course I'm going to debate from only my side What kind of fucking idiot debates for the other person.

lol how dumb off you,you throw off every point he comes with using your bullshit.

You mean I refute every point he comes with using logic and reason? Yes, I do.

[Master Chief]

I actually agree with Class more than I do with C.R.E.A.M here.

What the fuck.

[Satire]

I actually agree with Class more than I do with C.R.E.A.M here.

What the fuck.

I was gonna say the same thing but if I was the first to say it would look like my lips were surgically attached to class' asshole aka The Human Centipede. He was just...right, this time. It's weird. He should stick to doing that less often, it almost scares me.

[dead prez]

@prez

you know something bro,we cant really explain how and why we like the classic hip hop more,cuz we will be hit with the poor lyricism bullshit,once somebody said bad production (which is a sin) people just like underground too much.

Word, lol. But I think it's more personal preference to be honest.

I hate to be the preachy faggot but what music we "should listen to" is something that boils down to preference even though it's easy to make a debate as to what is technically better, which is why everyone needs to refrain from making objective statements unless it's possible to objectively back it up in what aspect, such as "_____ has better lyricism than ever, IE: (Supporting evidence)".

Word to this, even if you can break it down to the science of who can fit more syllables into their verses, it just gets mundane debating that type of shit. Not to mention people have different preferences for what they're looking for in a lyricist and lyricism is too broad and encompasses many different areas, to just say X has better than Y.

For example, I love Ghost's stream of consciouness lyrics, which isn't really a technicality per say, but 's just so unique with that style, and ran with it. He isn't concerned with sticking in as many syllabled per verse, but trying to make the most confusing bizarro verses, and he executes it perfectly. Ideally, I love his type of lyrics on Nutmeg and One, as it' just feels like a release of words being thrown at me, in all different directions, an esoteric feeling honestly, if you take the time to fully appreciate his craft.


Sorta like how you can appreciate MF Doom, even though I can guarantee, a good portion of the HHD wouldn't appreciate his music.


Alright first off before I get involved in this little scuffle, learn what fucking rappers belong in what era, it's fucking annoying to see people place Lupe as Classic Hip Hop, when he should be on neither side. Not to mention rappers that fall on BOTH sides of the spectrum, which overrided what is and goes to which side is confusing.

Beats : Classic beats of the original Hip Hop century from the 80s and 90s is that I prefer more, I find all these loud and orgin-using beats annoying and I would basically prefer the basic drums, bass, synth and maybe horns. Not saying underground beats aren't dope, i'm basically speaking about a certain style of beats, Hopsin's beats are one of the best of all time, and He's a Mental Giant had a GOAT beat, all i'm talking about is that "Darker sounding" beats that're made with loud piano voices and shit, and not to forget all these dumb drumkits from mainstream producers such as DJ Khaled's beats

This is all preference, you haven't given one ounce of objective reasoning why we should like Old School beats over new ones.

Flows : aight, Old School flows are better in almost every aspect, rappers such as Kool G Rap, Rakim, Snoop Doggy Dogg and Warren G have their own unique styles and flows to run with, smooth, not forced and ain't too fast or too slow, they're the makers of flow, Kool G Rap has the greatest flow i've ever heard, Underground rappers mostly have the common same flow, which is (imo) why people think they're terribly similar

They're pioneers of it, but they doesn't mean they can't be surpassed, plus learn what appeal to tradition is, before you start making so egregious fallacies.

Rhymes : Hell no, even if we said Eminem, the quantity of completely insane rhymes are unstoppable, rhyming Carmen Elektra's cuter/Arm and electricute her, and the line "Fire at the private eye hide to pry of my business" is sick, And if you mean the "Quality" of rhymes (Which I don't think you do, cause you included content, punchlines and basically shit that defines quality) that no as well, the best rhymer in the underground section of rap is Vinnie Paz (imo) but that doesn't stand to rappers like Canibus, Lupe Fiasco and Pharoahe Monch

Ok first off, Eminem isn't even Old School.
Secondly Vinnie Paz is not a paragon of rhyming for the underground, so don't use him.
Canibus would probably lean more towards underground than Old School, Lupe's neither, and Pharaoh Monch is kinda both.

Punchlines : That might be correct, only because in the 80s and 90s the products and media-ways were much less, basically rappers in the 20s have a lot of ideas, when you're in the 80s you can't make a punchline of an iPhone,

Horrible excuse

for (wack) example, but still Lloyd Banks, Royce Da 5'9", Wu-Tang Clan(ers) and Big L have much more better punchlines, imo (Bold are the ones i'm MORE familiar with, others I only know a bit of they're punchlines and genuinely shocked me)

Lloyd Banks seriously? Royce seriously? Wu Tang, really? Big L was an alright punchline rapper, but he wasn't reknowned for his wordplay punchlines, he had clarity, shock factor, and timing, but the actual wordplay of the punchlines were subpar.

Content : Old, realistic punchlines (political, racism, conscious, bragging, mafisoo, G-Funk's chilling content and storytelling) > almost any content in the Underground, they may have more creativity (such as concepts like Sexy Cyber)

Acting like the underground doesn't have those concepts is pretty stupid to begin with, well they have all those except probably G funk and mafioso, which died out around 97.

but that's conceptual writing, maybe related to content but not really, and not to forget all these "conceptual" writers are generally influenced by old concepts made from old schoolers, such as Common and Snoop Dogg, while other Classic hip hoppers have some great concepts as well, to be specific Joell Ortiz

Stop bringing up influence as a reason to why Old School is better than Underground, we're debating the content not what they did for the genre.

Creativity : Slick Rick's fictional story-telling literally surpasses any creativity founded in Hip Hop, it's not easy to come up with such vivid stories with every detail in them that basically makes sense, as well, You may mean creativity as in "Punchlines" but that wouldn't make sense cause you already made a section for that

No, hell Eminem even surpasses him, he took everything that made Slick Rick great and built upon it, you're really inflating the Old School acts to be much more than what they really were.

Story-telling : This only proves that you're being biased to underground cause the storytelling of the underground CANNOT compete with Old School, Slick Rick/Common/Kool G Rap/Nas and hell even Will Smith lmao

You haven't given on reason, other than because I say so.

So basically you just like beats that are more simple? That's all you were getting at. I would understand if you grew up in the streets listening to this but you live where? The middle east? And you just started listening to old school rap a couple months ago? Just listen to Sadistik or Jedi Mind Tricks. Emancipator and Stoupe are much more advanced beat wise than 90's producers.

More advance doesn't equal better Class.

You'd have a point Class, but you know what completely refutes your argument? Nineteen Ninety Now, an album with unreleased beats all from 94, and by many people's admission, it's one of the best album of last year. And the production is a huge reason as to why it was recieved so openly, so what does that tell you about us having better beats than what was made back than.

Lmao @ old school flows are better in every aspect. Old school Hip-Hop had some of the most basic flows of all time. THEY are the ones that all sound the same. You can go with fast flows like Royce or Tonedeff that are much better now or more aggresive flows like DZK or Copywrite. Or even Spoonfull if you want to go with a unique flow. He flows ten times better than Warren G or Kool G Rap lmao.

I'll give you that a lot of Mcs flows are more versatile now, but wtf, old school rappers (pre 97?) had tons of unique flows, Siah and Yeshua, Dr Octagon, ODB, Andre 3000.

Ddi you really just use Eminem? Eminem isn't old school Hip-Hop you fucking dipshit. He's on neither of our sides. If anything he would be on my side if you wanted to change it to old school vs. new school, but I don't need that. And I meant quality and quanitity. Sadistik's quality of rhymes destroys anyone from back then, same with Possessed, Diabolic then you could go with Tech N9ne, DZK, Copywrite for people that have so much more quantity. Vinnie Paz is no where near the best rhymer lmao. And really? Canibus is underground, plus he doesn't even have that good of rhymes and Lupe is not old school, classic rap, plus he is deffinitely NOT known for his rhyming. Stop bringing up rappers who shouldn't be involved.

What would Blackalicious' Blazing Arrow (2002) fall under?
Or MOTU (2000)?

Possessed, Copywrite, Vakill, Chino XL, ect, destroy them when it comes to punches..it's not even close.

Hold on there, I can accept Copywrite, Vakill, and Possessed having better punchlines than Big L, but NO WAY in hell does Chino Xl have better punchlines than Big L. They were all just corny non sequiters that are beyond forced and 90 percent are horrible allusions to current events and him trying his hardest to be clever at it, but failing miserably

Also take into account his horrid delivery of the punchlines, as opposed to Big L, who had much better clarity, and you could tell when he's saying a punchline, and not miss it.

Really? Political acts now, Lowkey for example, destroy any political rap from then (Public Enemy). It has so much more advanced thoughts and lyrics all aroung.

Are lyrics your only reason for listening to rap music, do you not enjoy it by musicality alone. Does everything have to be 100 percent complex in order to be a good verse?

Conscious rap is a joke, Prince Ea makes Common look like a child, our braggin is 100x better,

When he gets the discography to back it up, than we'll talk. Oh and touch up on his delivery as well.

mafioso is just ghetto rap,

This is beyond wrong, mafioso and ghetto rap are nothing alike.

Ghetto rap=illmatic
Mafioso rap=IWW

Hell Nas was criticized for switching over to Mafioso and being a sell out for doing that.

that's not good content,

Don't start throwing these absolute statements as facts.

same with G-Funk.

Look above

And lol @ saying Snoop Dogg is a concept rapper. Yeah Gin & Juice was fucking genius.

The actual content of the song no, but the musicality of it sure.

Also, Joell Ortiz is not a classic Hip-Hopper lolololol, all of Slaughterhouse is on my side. Just listen to Atmosphere, listen to Spoonfull, listen to Bekay, listen to Copywrites new album. That's good content.

Stop professing YOUR subjective tastes as fact, it's getting annoying. Not everything has to be deep in order for it to be great, execution is important as well, and can turn a mundande concept into something much more than it is.

No he doesn't lmfao. I'm talking about the Waitress (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjFfFjdB8AM) I'm talking about Spoonfull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOnuZveU8VE) They blow Slick Rick out of the water....he was good for his time but if he put out the exact same music now he wouldn't get praised for shit.

I can agree with this, Slick Rick is sacred cowed to death in terms of story telling ability.

The best I can offer as a counter is Ghostface's verse on Impossible, but they obviously have different goals, and aren't reaching for the same concept.

Again...no. The only point you have their is Nas but again, Atmosphere, Spoonfull, Bekay, Immortal Technique, ect, have much better and more creative stories.

Nas is a great storyteller and can easily keep up with the best of them.

Oh and he doesn't have creative concepts?
I gave you power, Project Roach, Fetus, Unauthorized Biography, Doo Rags, Last Real Nigga Alive, Rewind, Poppa was a Playa.

Exactly, I prefer simpler beats to loud and noisy ones, and I've been listening to Hip Hop since I was about 3, doesn't matter which country I live in as long as I'm in a rap-knowing society, I grew up on West Coast-based music, Dre, Snoop, Warren G, Nate, I know almost all of the West Coast rappers and that's probably the reason why my favorite rapper is Warren G, cause I grew up on G-Funk music, you should study your opponent's background before you make judgments.

All subjective than and superfluous to the argument.

What's so funny ? lmao @ basic flows .. how can you call Kool G Rap. Warren G and Snoop Dogg "Basic flows" ? no one ever came up with a flow like them until today, their style is unique, And if you wanna talk about fast flows they ain't got shit on Twista, who once held the title of the fastest rapper in the world, aggressive flows ? N.W.A's members especially Ice Cube, and you got Kool G Rap as well, just keep putting a fake "lmao" after each false sentence you put in order to put yourself in a position of a winner lmao

They barely switched it up is what he meant and pretty much stay the same throughout, and key word twista once. Their time is done, we respect what they've done for the genre, but you don't ge brownie points for pioneering it, yet get improved upon in every way imaginable.

How can't Lupe not being known for his rhyming denies the fact that he IS a good rhymer ? Samsung's known for good fridges but it's not known for good phones, otherwise their phones shits all over Nokia which is the same example, but again that's irrelevant
Talib Kweli's multi's, Mos Def, KRS-One and especially Kool G Rap's rhyming shits all over these folks, he's been classified as the greatest rhymer of all-time, by a lot of rappers, members, myself and a big amount of pioneers .. damn there ain't no denying that Kool G Rap is the best rhymer, not at all, listen to Fast Life or I'm Blowin' Up In The World for simple examples

This is not a good argument, who cares what other rappers say about him having the best rhymes. Again he's one of the pioneers, but that doesn't mean he can't be surpassed.

You think I was talking about Public Enemy ? I hate them shits lmfao
I was talking about Grandmaster Flash, 2Pac, Dead Prez, KRS-One, Mos Def, Common and especially Pharoahe Monch, and lmfao @ Prince Ea shitting on Common, man that's fantasy, almost similar to all these Jet-Li-type Kung Fu movies, Biggie's bragging >> whatever shit ya'll got, and Snoop Dogg isn't a conceptual rapper, some of his songs are coming out of geniusity and that can't be counted as a conceptual writer, not at all, "It Ain't No Fun (If The Homies Can't Have None) for an example, had a concept that was never done before, not saying it's better than shit now but it proves that Snoop has some concepts, and mafisoo rap is WAAY better than nerd rap such as Prince Ea, did you ever lived in danger outside your safe life inside your parents place that's mixed with peace and love ? , You obviously couldn't know shit about it, cause it has some realism, Kool G Rap had a ghetto life and he's one of the realest rappers out there and have 1000x more interesting content than pure punchlines and shit

Don't start this shit, it's completely subjective. I love Mobb Deep and that so called Hardcore shit, but I can also appreciate the genius of guys like Blackalicious and Deltron 3030, many would consider nerd rap.

And until you guys get into the nitty gritty of the argument stop making blanket statements.

LOL @ Nas being the only one
Pharoahe Monch blows Nas out of a swamp, distance between PM and Nas is the type of distance that can't be surpassed, not in a million years, Big Pun as well

Big Pun wasn't an avid storyteller....

[Satire]

Jesus.

[Master Chief]

Dude.

[dead prez]

This is why I hate these threads though, as there's tons of rappers that fall under both. Not to mention what do we classify their newer work, if their prime was during the 90s? Say Untitled, OB4CL2, Ecstatic, etc.

[Master Chief]

Royce seriously?

Yes.

[dead prez]

I like how that's the only part of my post you quoted.

[Master Chief]

I refuse to type a lot on a laptop. Plus, I don't really care for this argument lol.

[Spyder]

i gotta quote block and class and go with underground now

[stillmatic]

Some of the shit I'm reading. SMFH.

Kool G Rap has average rhyming. Ice Cube doesn't have an aggressive flow. Slick Rick is not a good storyteller. KRS has horrible rhyming. Lupe is weak. Mafioso rap is ghetto rap.

Armchair experts.

Ffs.