"Is Jay-Z The Greatest Of All-Time?" - Article

[classthe_king]

Has Embase ever listened to Jay-Z lol

[Spyder]

There is no GOAT .. you can have a GOAT list but every one of these is the best at something .. everybody can agree that Nas, Jay and Em are top 3 .. the rest of the top 5 is always either pac, biggie, andre or Rakim.

truth.

gotta have it Nas, Em, Jay, BIG, Pac. as far as influence and respect and legend.

obviously there are handfulls of rappers that are better then each of them at some aspect of the game.

[Accor]

Okay... how about because:

- He's not very artistically inventive (limited and predictable subject-matter), no thrilling concepts, doesn't really raise the bar lyrically or with his ideas
- He's not very dramatic or thrilling
- He's not particularly bold or daring
- His recent level / care of craft is... average at best and even when at best... not the best
- His personal depth is extremely limited; opting for psuedo philosophy and soundbites instead of any true level of internal turmoil analysis or 'digging' (if he's even capable of it)
- He seems to care more about 'appearing' good than being good...
- He generally equates greatness to sales and figures instead of artistry...
- Beyond the odd song and general overall impact and longevity... he hasn't really created a single song or moment which is a game-changer or wow factor, or anything more than 'very good' or 'cool'.

I could go on but I mean, I think that's plenty to add to the conversation of why he's not even top 5. If we're talking artistry, craft, originality... and not longevity, wealth and numbers.

Embase how many Jay albums have you actually listened to? Doesn't really raise the bar lyrically? Oh yeah this is the guy who said he was "just rambling" or something equally ridiculous about the second verse on Moment Of Clarity :''''(

Nothing more than "very good" or "cool"? See this is what makes me doubt you've properly delved into Jay's catalog.

Can I live
Regrets
American Gangster
Fallin
Blue Magic
Heart Of The City
D'evils
99 Problems
Lucifer

^Your generic but accurate shortlist of genre defining Jay songs. He has genre defining ALBUMS, though. American Gangster didn't have much of a palpable effect on the genre but it's still one of the best rap albums of all time.

Inspired by Basquiate, my chariot's on fire
Everybody took shots, hit my body up, I'm tired
Build me up, break me down to build me up again
They like, Hov we need you back so we can kill your ass again
Hov got flow though he's no Big and Pac, but he's close
How I'm 'posed to win, they got me fightin' ghosts
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Sh.., Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, see Malcolm
You see Biggie, see Pac, see success and its outcome
See Jesus, see Judas; see Caesar, see Brutus
See success is like suicide
Suicide, it's a suicide
If you succeed, prepare to be crucified
Media meddles, niggas sue you, you settle
Every step you take, they remind you you ghetto
So it's tough bein' Bobby Brown
To be Bobby then, you gotta beat Bobby now
Now the question is, is to have had and lost
Better than not having at [all]

That's what raising the bar lyrically looks like, btw.

Ghostface's subject matter doesn't vary all that much. Less than Jay's. But he still has 3 solidified classic albums (1 less than Jay), and is easily a top 10 rapper of all time. Song writing and ability to create timeless music is what sets rappers like Jay and Ghostface apart from the rest of the pack

His recent level / care of craft is... average at best and even when at best... not the best

Oh hey look everybody it's an Eminem fanatic talking about recent music quality! No, Jay's recent quality of music isn't on par with his best material, that's undeniable. I will argue that his last effort was at least good though (see Class's thread).

His personal depth is extremely limited; opting for psuedo philosophy and soundbites instead of any true level of internal turmoil analysis or 'digging' (if he's even capable of it)

Even if this is true, it doesn't change the quality of his albums. He raps extremely well about how he used to sell drugs. But that is a major over simplification of Jay-Z and if you listened to his albums you'd realize this. See You Must Love Me.

He generally equates greatness to sales and figures instead of artistry...

Even though this is completely irrelevant to the argument..
Jay is very aware of what greatness means and his place in the music industry. He isn't delusional, he's just always had a "one for you, one for me" walking the line between creating great music and the business side of things, which has resulted in work that isn't up to his standard. But again, him thinking sales = greatness (which he doesn't) isn't a valid argument against him being a top 5 rapper.

And again, even if he isn't "daring" that doesn't change the quality of his music. Sorry he wasn't marketed as a white celebrity basher with blonde hair.

Go listen to some Jay albums please.

[FixIt]

Okay... how about because:

- He's not very artistically inventive (limited and predictable subject-matter), no thrilling concepts, doesn't really raise the bar lyrically or with his ideas
- He's not very dramatic or thrilling
- He's not particularly bold or daring
- His recent level / care of craft is... average at best and even when at best... not the best
- His personal depth is extremely limited; opting for psuedo philosophy and soundbites instead of any true level of internal turmoil analysis or 'digging' (if he's even capable of it)
- He seems to care more about 'appearing' good than being good...
- He generally equates greatness to sales and figures instead of artistry...
- Beyond the odd song and general overall impact and longevity... he hasn't really created a single song or moment which is a game-changer or wow factor, or anything more than 'very good' or 'cool'.

I could go on but I mean, I think that's plenty to add to the conversation of why he's not even top 5. If we're talking artistry, craft, originality... and not longevity, wealth and numbers.

Embase how many Jay albums have you actually listened to? Doesn't really raise the bar lyrically? Oh yeah this is the guy who said he was "just rambling" or something equally ridiculous about the second verse on Moment Of Clarity :''''(

Nothing more than "very good" or "cool"? See this is what makes me doubt you've properly delved into Jay's catalog.

Can I live
Regrets
American Gangster
Fallin
Blue Magic
Heart Of The City
D'evils
99 Problems
Lucifer

^Your generic but accurate shortlist of genre defining Jay songs. He has genre defining ALBUMS, though. American Gangster didn't have much of a palpable effect on the genre but it's still one of the best rap albums of all time.

Inspired by Basquiate, my chariot's on fire
Everybody took shots, hit my body up, I'm tired
Build me up, break me down to build me up again
They like, Hov we need you back so we can kill your ass again
Hov got flow though he's no Big and Pac, but he's close
How I'm 'posed to win, they got me fightin' ghosts
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Sh.., Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, see Malcolm
You see Biggie, see Pac, see success and its outcome
See Jesus, see Judas; see Caesar, see Brutus
See success is like suicide
Suicide, it's a suicide
If you succeed, prepare to be crucified
Media meddles, niggas sue you, you settle
Every step you take, they remind you you ghetto
So it's tough bein' Bobby Brown
To be Bobby then, you gotta beat Bobby now
Now the question is, is to have had and lost
Better than not having at [all]

That's what raising the bar lyrically looks like, btw.

Ghostface's subject matter doesn't vary all that much. Less than Jay's. But he still has 3 solidified classic albums (1 less than Jay), and is easily a top 10 rapper of all time. Song writing and ability to create timeless music is what sets rappers like Jay and Ghostface apart from the rest of the pack

His recent level / care of craft is... average at best and even when at best... not the best

Oh hey look everybody it's an Eminem fanatic talking about recent music quality! No, Jay's recent quality of music isn't on par with his best material, that's undeniable. I will argue that his last effort was at least good though (see Class's thread).

His personal depth is extremely limited; opting for psuedo philosophy and soundbites instead of any true level of internal turmoil analysis or 'digging' (if he's even capable of it)

Even if this is true, it doesn't change the quality of his albums. He raps extremely well about how he used to sell drugs. But that is a major over simplification of Jay-Z and if you listened to his albums you'd realize this. See You Must Love Me.

He generally equates greatness to sales and figures instead of artistry...

Even though this is completely irrelevant to the argument..
Jay is very aware of what greatness means and his place in the music industry. He isn't delusional, he's just always had a "one for you, one for me" walking the line between creating great music and the business side of things, which has resulted in work that isn't up to his standard. But again, him thinking sales = greatness (which he doesn't) isn't a valid argument against him being a top 5 rapper.

And again, even if he isn't "daring" that doesn't change the quality of his music. Sorry he wasn't marketed as a white celebrity basher with blonde hair.

Go listen to some Jay albums please.

[Mathers]

Embase how many Jay albums have you actually listened to? Doesn't really raise the bar lyrically? Oh yeah this is the guy who said he was "just rambling" or something equally ridiculous about the second verse on Moment Of Clarity :''''(

Did he really say that?

[HonestFan]

It's always fun reading people who don't even listen to Jay Z try to have a agrument whether him or Em is the GOAT. But what can I expect on a Eminem forum.

[Mathers]

Embase how many Jay albums have you actually listened to? Doesn't really raise the bar lyrically? Oh yeah this is the guy who said he was "just rambling" or something equally ridiculous about the second verse on Moment Of Clarity :''''(

Did he really say that?

I'm not really sure about what statement he made that you're referencing but in fairness Moment of Clarity was the song where he admitted he wasn't going to focus as much on lyrics anymore as long as it made him money. His words, not mine...don't act like I'm just "hating".

Ok.

[fifflaren]

It's always fun reading people who don't even listen to Jay Z try to have a agrument whether him or Em is the GOAT. But what can I expect on a Eminem forum.

what are you doing on this forum ?

[Mathers]

Listen to Jay's classics from top to bottom (Reasonable Doubt, The Blueprint, The Black Album) and tell me Jay isn't top 5......

Agreed.