What am I not understanding about MBDTF?

[Eedee]

Go for it, I'm open to both arguments.

[kkaniff]

First off, reviews are personal opinions, personal opinions presented with the aim of influencing the reader's mind, of swaying her opinion so that her views come into alignment with yours.
A reviewer is a salesman, all of them are. So when the argument opens with;
"How do we respond to the
most bloated, egotistical, fantastical,
flat-out amazing release hip-hop has
seen in three, five, ten years? Ever?"
...
" most egotistical", "most fantastical", Like I said before, resorting to vague, unquantifiable terms. How can you say, definitively, that MBDTF is more fantastical, or more "conceived or appearing as if conceived by an
unrestrained imagination; odd and remarkable;
bizarre; grotesque" than Relapse or The SSLP or even the sheer imaginativeness of Rick Ross' Port of Miami or Deeper than Rap?
Lets not even touch "most amazing release hip-hop as ever seen". You can't.
*"And as
they've listened, those who felt let
down already continued to feel so as
Kanye sings his way through a good
portion of My Beautiful Dark Twisted
Fantasy. They've listened as Kanye
gets his kicks from pretending to be
the first hip-hop producer since
perhaps the RZA who can claim to be
a composer, a true studio producer
who arranges and directs a song
from skeletal idea to full-formed
beast."
Nobody contests the intricacy of the production, like I said before, it's brilliant. Probably the most intricate production I've heard on any rap record, but bear in mind that doesn't neccessarily make it the best produced record or even the most sonically pleasing record released in even the past 10 years.
For an album to aspire to be among the greatest of all time, it needs two things, the first is that it needs to be extraordinary, novel, it has to break new ground and then it has to do so in a manner that captures the imagination of the general populace.
Illmatic is one of the greatest hip-hop albums OAT. It is not one of the greatest albums OAT.
Thriller is one of the greatest albums OAT. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't contest that someone who says TF is as good an album as MMLP might have a point, I do disagree very strenuously however, when someone says TF is a greater album than MMLP. Or Adele's 21, or please-don't-hurt-me, Recovery.
Moving on, though.

[kkaniff]

*"But we could talk about ear candy all
day when an album's production has
been billed for $3 million and
included studio sessions in Hawaii
and Paris during which Kanye
required all participants wear formal
dress attire."
Irrelevant bullshit.

[kkaniff]

*"We could talk about the
amazing layering of eleven different
vocalists atop skittering jungle-like
percussion on "All of the Lights" or his
perfectly timed mining of Nas' vaults
for "Devil in a New Dress". We could
talk about the stark loneliness of the
piano lead on "Runaway", or its
depressed cousin on "Blame Game"
looped from Aphex Twin's most
fantastic piece, "Avril 14th". We could
talk about the glass-shattering bass
on "Monster" and "Lost in the World",
or the glorious transition from the
latter track into a modernized vision
of Gil-Scott Heron's "Small Talk at
125th and Lenox" that closes the
album. We could talk about the
excruciatingly precise delivery that
fuels Jay-Z, Cy-Hi, Pusha T and Kanye
himself through the entirety of the
record"
Yes, it's detailed and very well produced for a hip-hop album, you've said that before.
Also, "excruciatingly precise delivery" huh, wtf does that even mean, and taking those words at face value, how is that extraordinary or worthy of canonization?
I could say "a deep amber stream that glittered, catching glints of golden sunlight and throwing them off, sparkling like diamonds in the noon sun" while describing taking a piss in the bushes, does that make pissing a transcendent experience?

[kkaniff]

*"See, there are few more human
albums in hip-hop than My Beautiful
Dark Twisted Fantasy. In a genre
fueled largely by ghetto fantasies and
corner bravado, it has often been
hard for artists to balance their true
feelings with the expectations placed
on them by the genre's listeners. As
such, it's no surprise that Jay-Z is the
genre's biggest MC, or that the
ramshackle pseudo-lyricism of
modern day Lil' Wayne is marked as
the one truly dependable commodity
in the pop marketplace"
There was a whole paragraph about Rick Ross representing his past and Jay Z, his future and the reviewer crying over Blame Game that I think is a wildly ambitious reach and irrelevant. I have seen Runaway and I own the DTF album, I wasn't overly impressed by the former and I enjoy the latter, but please, miss me with that representing his future self stuff. The reviewer crying over Blame Game is irrelevant, I cried when Voldemort died. So?
...
I'm getting tired, and I haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet, but basically...
"But it is the heart, soul and
humanity of My Beautiful Dark Twisted
Fantasy that ultimately marks it as the
defining pop moment of 2010"
I agree.
"We
surely ain't never heard a hip-hop
album like this before, sonically or
thematically."
WRONG!!!
Google thematically, as ask yourself, is TF the most .... hip-hop album ever created?
My answer, is "fuck no, what are you smoking?"
And
"Six years later, Kanye is
undoubtedly the most openly self-
aware MC"
This is just laughable.
...

[dead prez]

You're first point is basically stating the obvious, saying that reviewers and critics have opinions... Well no shit, they do. I never claimed that it was some grounded or unbiased review, it's just one that explains in detail why it's a great album and contextualizes it in the hip hop genre.

And are you're just extrapolating random praises for the album and saying you disagree, uhh yeah we get it... Try arguing his actual points and not just his adulation for it.

You're also conceding to it's brilliant production, strike two. Production is largely subjective for the most part but it aims and completely hits bullseye at what it's trying to do in that regard. Some people prefer more stripped down raw production of the 80s whatever... Sonically pleasing, llool. I love when people use that term, you do know that's completely subjective right... MBDTF is pretty noisy and cacophonous at cetain parts (but never like yeezus) and in a sense reminds me of shoegaze at certain parts or noise rock.

You also completely did not justify why you think Thriller is a better contender of being one of the greatest albums of all time rather than illmatic, the only reason why I'd assume you'd say that is because of thriller's popularity and record breaking sells. And if you are than we're gonna have a problem...

There are tons of amazingly great albums that aren't very popular or known but are legitmate contenders for being some of the best albums off all time, and they don't have to be groundbreaking either. Just perfecting a preexisting sound is just as hard as innovating one.

[dead prez]

also learn to quote I can't tell which part you're breaking down

[Eedee]

I'll read all this later, but please don't quadruple post.

[dead prez]

*"
There was a whole paragraph about Rick Ross representing his past and Jay Z, his future and the reviewer crying over Blame Game that I think is a wildly ambitious reach and irrelevant. I have seen Runaway and I own the DTF album, I wasn't overly impressed by the former and I enjoy the latter, but please, miss me with that representing his future self stuff. The reviewer crying over Blame Game is irrelevant, I cried when Voldemort died. So?

No it isn't and you saying that just shows you either take everything at face value or brush off anything that looks into the symbolism of something a blind reach...

WRONG!!!

Name a hip hop album that sounded like MBDTF before it was released.

Google thematically, as ask yourself, is TF the most .... hip-hop album ever created?
My answer, is "fuck no, what are you smoking?"

The most what? Thematic? I wouldn't say it is but I wouldn't argue against it either

"
This is just laughable.
...

Name another MC more self aware than Ye.

[dead prez]

I'd say oneirology is more thematic than MBDTF I guess.

[kkaniff]

I'm typing on my phone and so this didn't come off as polished or as clear as I would have liked.
Hope it was readable, at least.
@deadprez
-Nope, my first point states that the -reviewer is biased and thus might ascibe to the album qualities it doesn't deserve so it should be taken with a pinch of salt.
-Again, no I didn't just disagree with him, I didn't agree with his point that it is the most fantastical...etc, and I gave reasons why I think it isn't.
Those were his actual points.
- I agreed that it has brilliant production, how is that strike two?
- And yes, I think Thriller's a greater album than Illmatic because it sold more. Notice I said greater not better.
- Sorry Eedee, I can't edit posts or quote on my phone for some strange reason.
-deadprez I could write a readable article about the deep symbolism behind Eminem's performance of Fack. Won't make it true. Symbolism can be used as a defence for anything.
-There have been more personal albums than TF before it was released, I think you missed my point.
-ANY artist, at this point, is more self aware than Kanye West.

[kkaniff]

Nope, because he uses the "most fantastical and most amazing hip hop release ever" as his opening, he is obviously biased.

[dead prez]

just like every fucking poster in this forum is towards Eminem? Like being biased prty much = having an opinion on something.

[kkaniff]

Yeah, pretty much every poster on here is biased towards Eminem, it's almost like it's an Eminem forum.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

One of the best albums of all time, back when Kanye cared about his music and i liked him.

Why?

because i think it is.

Nothing sounds remotely close as a full body of work to MBDTF.