What am I not understanding about MBDTF?

[Eedee]

One of the best albums of all time, back when Kanye cared about his music and i liked him.

Why?

because i think it is.

Nothing sounds remotely close as a full body of work to MBDTF.

Eh, I disagree, but I can see why you would think that.

[kkaniff]

"if u were capable of constructing a
good piece of text (hint: you're not)"
I have read and enjoyed every major fantasy release since the LOTR, a good chunk of the literary classics and my fav. authors are Salman Rudshie and Wole Soyinka. So, yeah, I think I might be capable of constructing a good piece of text.
Go try and be condescending to someone else, boy.

[dead prez]

-Nope, my first point states that the -reviewer is biased and thus might ascibe to the album qualities it doesn't deserve so it should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Who gives a flying fuck. You writing off the review cause you think it's biased is about as stupid as me writing off the opinion of every stan on this forum regarding Eminem & Hip Hop, oh wait I already do that... It's a complete fallacy to do that and is one of the most pussified things one can do, rather than argue the substance of an argument you argue... LOL BIASED

-Again, no I didn't just disagree with him, I didn't agree with his point that it is the most fantastical...etc, and I gave reasons why I think it isn't.

That's literally all you did. Oh and say nope, exaggerated, and he's repeating his points.

Those were his actual points.
- I agreed that it has brilliant production, how is that strike two?

Because that's a huge portion of what makes a hip hop album or fuck any album great, like if I say The Downward spiral is one of the best produced albums ever, I'd say that's a great argument for it being a contender of being the best industrial album. Just like it is for rap...

- And yes, I think Thriller's a greater album than Illmatic because it sold more. Notice I said greater not better.

Lol, Semantics argument -

I could write a readable article about the deep symbolism behind Eminem's performance of Fack. Won't make it true. Symbolism can be used as a defence for anything.

Yes you could, I would tear that to that to shreds. It's all about backing yourself up to scrutiny and making the most logical "guesses" possible... You think literary critics just throw shit at a wall and hope it sticks?

-There have been more personal albums than TF before it was released, I think you missed my point.
-ANY artist, at this point, is more self aware than Kanye West.

And yet you refuse to name them

[King Lance]

First off, reviews are personal opinions, personal opinions presented with the aim of influencing the reader's mind, of swaying her opinion so that her views come into alignment with yours.
A reviewer is a salesman, all of them are. So when the argument opens with;
"How do we respond to the
most bloated, egotistical, fantastical,
flat-out amazing release hip-hop has
seen in three, five, ten years? Ever?"
...
" most egotistical", "most fantastical", Like I said before, resorting to vague, unquantifiable terms. How can you say, definitively, that MBDTF is more fantastical, or more "conceived or appearing as if conceived by an
unrestrained imagination; odd and remarkable;
bizarre; grotesque" than Relapse or The SSLP or even the sheer imaginativeness of Rick Ross' Port of Miami or Deeper than Rap?
Lets not even touch "most amazing release hip-hop as ever seen". You can't.
*"And as
they've listened, those who felt let
down already continued to feel so as
Kanye sings his way through a good
portion of My Beautiful Dark Twisted
Fantasy. They've listened as Kanye
gets his kicks from pretending to be
the first hip-hop producer since
perhaps the RZA who can claim to be
a composer, a true studio producer
who arranges and directs a song
from skeletal idea to full-formed
beast."
Nobody contests the intricacy of the production, like I said before, it's brilliant. Probably the most intricate production I've heard on any rap record, but bear in mind that doesn't neccessarily make it the best produced record or even the most sonically pleasing record released in even the past 10 years.
For an album to aspire to be among the greatest of all time, it needs two things, the first is that it needs to be extraordinary, novel, it has to break new ground and then it has to do so in a manner that captures the imagination of the general populace.
Illmatic is one of the greatest hip-hop albums OAT. It is not one of the greatest albums OAT.
Thriller is one of the greatest albums OAT. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't contest that someone who says TF is as good an album as MMLP might have a point, I do disagree very strenuously however, when someone says TF is a greater album than MMLP. Or Adele's 21, or please-don't-hurt-me, Recovery.
Moving on, though.

Illmatic is widely considered as one of the greatest albums of all time, many people/critics/fans/artists even rank it higher than Thriller

[kkaniff]

-Saying that the review should be taken with a pinch of salt =/= me dismissing the review, or saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously, if you actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I agreed with some of his/her points.
-*sigh*
Look, if he says an album is great because it's the most fantastical work of all time, and then I provide a definition of fantastical and 4 albums more fantastical by the definition of the word, off the top of my head, then I just proved him wrong.
-If you name 10 classic hip-hop albums and ask the people who listened to them what makes them great, I can guarantee that the first thing that comes to their mind won't be the production.
-I can also tear the "Jay Z is future Kanye" argument apart. Effortlessly.
-You want me to name an artist more self aware than the man who is probably the biggest hypocrite in music right now, the man who thinks he's Walt Disney or that he has even a minute portion of the talent that Steve Jobs or Shakespeare had?
The man who thinks he's a fashion genius when his sole claim to fashion fame are a pair of over-priced, hype beast sneakers?
Okay, how about Riff Raff, or Ricky "Big Meech" Rozay and Aubrey "Gon Make Me Catch A Body Like That" Graham.

[Rattle1]

Mbdtf won
Kendrick won too but mbdtf won even more.

don't like mbdtf that much but it's cool to remind ya how praised this album is

http://www.nme.com/photos/the-500-great ... 323975/1/1

Hip-Hop:

500. Outkast, 'Stankonia' (2000)
485. Kendrick Lamar, 'Good Kid M.A.A.D City' (2012)
470. Kanye West, 'Graduation' (2007)
466. The Wu-Tang Clan, 'The W' (2000)
459. Jay-Z, 'The Black Album' (2003)
433. Dr. Dre '2001' (2001)
420. A Tribe Called Quest, 'People’s Instinctive Travels And The Paths Of Rhythm' (1990)
411. Madvillain, 'Madvillainy' (2004)
397. Jay-Z, 'Reasonable Doubt'
338. Notorious BIG, 'Ready To Die' (1994)
318. Ice T, 'OG Original Gangster' (1991)
295. Snoop Dogg, 'Doggystyle' (1993)
273. Kanye West, 'The College Dropout' (2004)
259. Public Enemy, 'Yo! Bum Rush The Show' (1987)
248. Eminem, 'The Slim Shady LP' (1999)
231. Dr Dre, 'The Chronic' (1992)
205. NWA, 'Straight Outta Compton' (1988)
186. Jay-Z, 'The Blueprint' (2001)
185. Paid in Full, 'Eric B & Rakim' (1987)
183. OutKast, 'Speakerboxxx/The Love Below'
179. Missy Elliott, 'Miss E… So Addictive' (2001)
135. Eminem, 'The Marshall Mathers LP' (2000)
126. Beastie Boys, 'Ill Communication' (1994
120. De La Soul, '3 Feet High And Rising' (1989)
112. GZA, 'Liquid Swords' (1995)
96. Public Enemy, 'Fear Of A Black Planet' (1990)
89. Lauryn Hill, 'The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill' (1998)
74. Nas, 'Illmatic' (1994)
21. Kanye West, 'My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy' (2010)
17. Public Enemy, 'It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back' (1988)

[kkaniff]

King Lance, think of it like this;
If I say, who is the greatest writer that you know? What would your answer be?

[dead prez]

-Saying that the review should be taken with a pinch of salt =/= me dismissing the review, or saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously, if you actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I agreed with some of his/her points.
-*sigh*

Look, if he says an album is great because it's the most fantastical work of all time, and then I provide a definition of fantastical and 4 albums more fantastical by the definition of the word, off the top of my head, then I just proved him wrong.

But you didn't and I doubt you could substantiate yourself to any level worth listening too.

-If you name 10 classic hip-hop albums and ask the people who listened to them what makes them great, I can guarantee that the first thing that comes to their mind won't be the production.

Well you're hilariously wrong

-illmatic
-DONUTS
-DA ENTRODUCING
-Game Theory
-Prty much every Kanye album
-THE CHRONIC
-MADVILLAINY
-ALBUM OF THE YEAR (Black Milk album)
-COSMOGRAMMA (though it could be classified as IDM instead)
-pretty much EVERY vintage wu tang record

you sound rly ignorant right now.

-
-I can also tear the "Jay Z is future Kanye" argument apart. Effortlessly.

Than do it, I'm not saying that it's the most logical conclusion and does require some of your noggin to come across that. But it's not that difficult to understand, Jay z prty much passing the torch to kanye who's his protégé, loll... Rick Ross who symbolizes gangsta rap in the mainstream, the complete antitheses to kanye's music and something he struggled with throughout... Noted in lyrics like gorgeous how everyone fawns over him because he's backpacker and not that stupid gangster rap shit... Pusha T is pretty self explanatory...

-You want me to name an artist more self aware than the man who is probably the biggest hypocrite in music right now, the man who thinks he's Walt Disney or that he has even a minute portion of the talent that Steve Jobs or Shakespeare had?
The man who thinks he's a fashion genius when his sole claim to fashion fame are a pair of over-priced, hype beast sneakers?
Okay, how about Riff Raff, or Ricky "Big Meech" Rozay and Aubrey "Gon Make Me Catch A Body Like That" Graham.

First off this review was at the time MBDTF was just released disregarding yeezus, secondly LOOLLL at you taking his over the top shit he does as a publicity stunt and as a joke seriously... How about looking at songs like ALL falls down, Jesus Walks, Runaway? Lolll

[King Lance]

King Lance, think of it like this;
If I say, who is the greatest writer that you know? What would your answer be?

Tupac and then kanye and then shakespeare and then dead prez

Mbdtf won
Kendrick won too but mbdtf won even more.

don't like mbdtf that much but it's cool to remind ya how praised this album is

http://www.nme.com/photos/the-500-great ... 323975/1/1

Hip-Hop:

500. Outkast, 'Stankonia' (2000)
485. Kendrick Lamar, 'Good Kid M.A.A.D City' (2012)
470. Kanye West, 'Graduation' (2007)
466. The Wu-Tang Clan, 'The W' (2000)
459. Jay-Z, 'The Black Album' (2003)
433. Dr. Dre '2001' (2001)
420. A Tribe Called Quest, 'People’s Instinctive Travels And The Paths Of Rhythm' (1990)
411. Madvillain, 'Madvillainy' (2004)
397. Jay-Z, 'Reasonable Doubt'
338. Notorious BIG, 'Ready To Die' (1994)
318. Ice T, 'OG Original Gangster' (1991)
295. Snoop Dogg, 'Doggystyle' (1993)
273. Kanye West, 'The College Dropout' (2004)
259. Public Enemy, 'Yo! Bum Rush The Show' (1987)
248. Eminem, 'The Slim Shady LP' (1999)
231. Dr Dre, 'The Chronic' (1992)
205. NWA, 'Straight Outta Compton' (1988)
186. Jay-Z, 'The Blueprint' (2001)
185. Paid in Full, 'Eric B & Rakim' (1987)
183. OutKast, 'Speakerboxxx/The Love Below'
179. Missy Elliott, 'Miss E… So Addictive' (2001)
135. Eminem, 'The Marshall Mathers LP' (2000)
126. Beastie Boys, 'Ill Communication' (1994
120. De La Soul, '3 Feet High And Rising' (1989)
112. GZA, 'Liquid Swords' (1995)
96. Public Enemy, 'Fear Of A Black Planet' (1990)
89. Lauryn Hill, 'The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill' (1998)
74. Nas, 'Illmatic' (1994)
21. Kanye West, 'My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy' (2010)
17. Public Enemy, 'It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back' (1988)

the w instead of 36 chambers though

[King Lance]

hey kkanniff you made that post yesterday: "MMLP2 is HHDx Reader's Choice AOTY. " and you said that people > critics right ?

then what about that http://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/index.p ... c=551372.0

mbdtf is winning by your standards son

[dead prez]

I swear GKMC keeps getting moved up, last time I saw it it was behind Deltron 3030, lol

[King Lance]

I swear GKMC keeps getting moved up, last time I saw it it was behind Deltron 3030, lol

yeah it went from 28 to 21

and mbdtf went from 10 to 9




but it's just a list and I don't care, I just don't see why you would be mad at people who consider an album (MBDTF) as one of the greatest albums, nahmean ? it's not like it was an unpopular opinion... sure it's stupid to praise an album because it's the cool thing to do but some albums have been praised since the very first day of its release. People were calling mbdtf a goat album way before the first review came out

I have nothing against someone like eedee who wants to understand what people see in this album but talking shit about people who praise something that you don't like...

[kkaniff]

- But I did. I said The SSLP, by the very definition of the word, is a more fantastical album, I also mentioned Relapse, and Rick Ross' Port of Miami, which had everybody I know thinking Rozay was a drug dealer on the scale of Scarface. Now THAT is a flight of fancy.
- I've got close to genius level I.Q, I can substantiate to any level I want.
-If you listened to Illmatic and the first thing that leapt out at you was the production, then we might have a bit of a problem.
-The Kanye is future Jay thing is something that is so absurd, it's not worth my time. It sounds like something a lonely Kanye Stan made up while counting the cracks in his ceiling.
-Eminem, at his worst, is more self aware than Kanye at his best. If you think all the Kanye rants and running into poles and general impulsiveness are just one elaborate publicity stunt, then I'm a Nigerian prince with my assets trapped abroad, help me claim it and we'll share.
@KingLance
I made the HHDX thread, I didnt say people > critics though I believe the idea has merit. I also think KTT, for the most part, is like the Sodom and Gomorrah of group-think and imbecility i.e it should be killed with fire.
I meant actual writers, authors with actual books.

[dead prez]

I've got close to genius level I.Q, I can substantiate to any level I want.

I've got close to genius level I.Q, I can substantiate to any level I want.

I've got close to genius level I.Q, I can substantiate to any level I want.

I think we're just about done here, also lots of people cite the production in illmatic just as much or equal to the rapping....

[King Lance]

- But I did. I said The SSLP, by the very definition of the word, is a more fantastical album, I also mentioned Relapse, and Rick Ross' Port of Miami, which had everybody I know thinking Rozay was a drug dealer on the scale of Scarface. Now THAT is a flight of fancy.
- I've got close to genius level I.Q, I can substantiate to any level I want.
-If you listened to Illmatic and the first thing that leapt out at you was the production, then we might have a bit of a problem.
-The Kanye is future Jay thing is something that is so absurd, it's not worth my time. It sounds like something a lonely Kanye Stan made up while counting the cracks in his ceiling.
-Eminem, at his worst, is more self aware than Kanye at his best. If you think all the Kanye rants and running into poles and general impulsiveness are just one elaborate publicity stunt, then I'm a Nigerian prince with my assets trapped abroad, help me claim it and we'll share.
@KingLance
I made the HHDX thread, I didnt say people > critics though I believe the idea has merit. I also think KTT, for the most part, is like the Sodom and Gomorrah of group-think and imbecility i.e it should be killed with fire.
I meant actual writers, authors with actual books.

the production is a valid argument IMO. music is totally relative and subjective at the end of the day so can you please tell me what makes an album like The Chronic a good album ? the rapping ? the lyrics ? aren't we praising the chronic for it's production ?

it's the same shit for kanye. look at College Dropout, 808,Late Registration...these albums pretty much confirmed that kanye was one of the most influential artists (in any genre) of the 2000s. Just like when Dr. Dre released The Chronic in the 92' and other cats followed his brand of G Funk or idea of sampling Funk songs, Kanye birthed a whole new style of music, he birthed a lot of artists.. kid cudi, drake, Future, and a ton of other rappers.