Rap Hits a Ceiling

[Sukot]

Granted I agree on Em's current topics are redundant, I would also like to remind people that none of this stuff is for his album lol Maybe that's why I don't really get upset like 90% of the forum? I realize that Em is a perfectionist with regards to his own work, or things with meaning. If Em's next album has songs that just relate to hating hos and stuff...then, THEN I will join the flocks of people in annoyance.

Sometimes I feel that the songs that he does before any Album reflects his mind state that he is in and it does show up in his Albums some what. He did "Forever" right around the time when he was done with Relapse 1 & 2 (I guess), the way that he approached that song did reflect on Recovery. I can attribute the reason of hate towards this song to this point, although I can be terribly wrong with this theory.

You could be right, although I think the fact that Lil Wayne (and to a lesser extent, Drake and Kanye West) was on the song was also a large reason for the hate it got. And also, the beat is the sort of thing a lot of Eminem fans wouldn't like. So it's probably a combination of a few things.

[Sam.]

Lol what?Eminem's Forever verse was dope as fuck, it was not bad at all and I didn't even mean that.

[Sukot]

Lol what?Eminem's Forever verse was dope as fuck, it was not bad at all and I didn't even mean that.

Ha. Sorry man. I like Em's verse too (infact, I like the song as a whole). I was just giving a few reasons why a lot of people don't like the song (but you didn't even mean that anyway).

[Elision]

this is the dumbest/most arrogant thread in the fuckin world

[Trimss]

this is the dumbest/most arrogant thread in the fuckin world

I came to the conclusion Tech N9ne didn't catch the cypher.

[Ethos]

To an extent I do agree with the article. A lot of cats these days do not try to be original, but it is hard to be original when everything has been said. Like someone already said, some artists seem to show signs of being a mixture of all their idols. Which is no problem at all, we all learn by taking present practices and try to make a style out of it. But I would say content that is said is where this argument has any solid points. Hip Hop (and any other type of music) is not just about your lyrics but how you present it.

Take a look at Busta Rhymes: Shit lyrics when you read them on paper, but the way he presents himself, and how he says things makes him one of the greats. Like Andre 3000, if you read his lyrics you'd be like wtf, but then you hear it and you're like I see it. Some artists can present themselves on paper and off (like Em).

And yes, a lot of these artists have the lyrical ability. They can write vivid images, but their presentation sounds the same as the last guy. That's where I think hey are right when they say that it seems like rap's at a standstill. No one is standing out as much. Out of the new rappers, I'd have to say Kendrick Lamar has been the only one to standout to me because of his quick calm flow.

This is all strictly opinion though. And I'm writing on an iPod so if there is anything I need to clear up that I wrote just ask

[Devil'sAdvocate]

Nowadays,Em is beatable,still hard to do it,but you can outshine him.

back in the day,FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE.

[_Hawk_]

What is interesting is the rise of 'under-ground' artists who remain relatively underground, but easily accessible to people, and still present in the media.

Take Odd Future. they're self-produced,and last I looked, hadn't been snatched up by a large record label. They play at well-known events (Reading here in the UK) but show no tangible signs of turning pop. This is where the article is flawed; effectively the focus is on Pop-rap artists. Eminem isn't completely Pop (Recovery is debateble, but I believe it has a huge pop influence) but is known worldwide; arguably he has the recognition of a Pop-Star, and is prevalent in the music charts. Tyler et al are not.

Now take Tyler's work (along with the rest of odd future): for something self-produced, it is at a much higher standard overall than anything Em worked with pre Infinite. Even compared to Infinite I believe the standard is higher overall (delivery, content, humour, shock value etc; it is easier to listen to than Em's scarily brilliant multi-rhymes on Infinite). Of course technology impacts this hugely, but the indication is that Underground artists are still performing at very high-levels.

Hopsin is another great example. I don't think either of the aforementioned are necessarily aiming for the same level of fame as Eminem, because they don't want to see their music belittled and compared to pop-music. Popular rap is depressingly poor. But the more underground types are still going fairly strong.

[EminemBase]

....he always focuses on improving himself and to an obsessive degree. Most other 'greats' don't do that, or certainly not in the same way he does. They just continue to do what they do, over and over. Which is why they eventually sound tired and old. Where as Em, he constantly examines himself and culture and adapts.

Very true, but this argument is limited. What has he been rapping about in his last tracks which he's released? Hoes, sluts, bitches, violence and rape. Nothing new there at all. I believe that Em always focuses on improving himself, but the difference is that he went from not giving a fuck to giving one. He has started listening to his critics and his fans, and gone back to studying his earlier releases to return to that content; readress it and expand it. He has a wide base of themes to work on (more so than any other rapper that is note-worthy) but it's wrong to suggest that every new release introduces new themes (your post is quite ambiguous mate, so sorry in advance if you're not suggesting this at all). Since Encore, every record has been more reactionary (in terms of evolution) than revolutionary.
As far as improvement goes, that's definitely true. He's a hard worker; a hip-hop nerd and a perfectionist. His work ethic speaks volumes.

But it's easy to be picky when seeking perfection as fans.

I meant he's always improved himself TECHNICALLY.

He did evolve a lot in subject-matter and now he's somewhat reverted but he never stops trying to evolve technically - with his rhyming and flows, and styles.

That's what I meant.

[_Hawk_]

Makes perfect sense, and supports my argument eariler in this topic. Sorry for the confusion mate.

The question is: has he reached a point where it's more beneficial to revert back to past work (in terms of flow structure, delivery, etc) in order to improve? It's like a vicious circle. If he released another MMLP, it would be criticised as repetitive. In terms of the technical side, another MMLP would be extremely interesting. There were elements of his old calm flows present in the recent cypher, with the aggression from TES tracks like Till I Collapse mixed in. I always used to think that it's great that Em has used mixtapes, disses and features on tracks to help improve his technical abilities. For the same reason, I think some of the worst singles on Encore (like Ass Like That, Just Lose it, My First Single etc) would have fitted well on an Eminem release just full of tracks where he was literally just fucking around. When tracks like Wee Wee are leaked, they highlight his creative process in improving himself, and trying out new things. When other artists are still trying to make a name for themself and reach a pinnacle, Em is exploring new avenues for personal fulfillment.

[Sofi]