Ether vs Takeover

[classthe_king]

Ether was nothing but kindergarten insults about his looks, and other superficial shit. I mean the whole first verse is nothing but him whining about how he's still relevant. The second verse is on some emo shit I mean " I've been fucked over, left for dead, dissed and forgotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some "well wishers", friendly acting, envy hiding snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take", really?

The third verse he kicked it up a notch but it still nothing but kindergarten insults and some lies.

Takeover is a much better diss track, but I'd rather listen to Ether as a song.

First verse he opens it up nice and gets the listener anticipating for the disses.

Second verse he dismantles Prodigy (who was more relevant than Nas at the time)

Nas he destroys, whom he accuses of being a model, check.
Nas switching up from Nasty Nas to Esco's trash, check.
Nas falling off horribly since illmatic, check (well IWW was dope0
Nas' bodyguard outshining him on a song, check (worse than being outshined by Em that's for sure)
Nas being a fake thug, he is the definition of a studio gangsta.
Jay z showing Nas his first tech with large professer, check
Nas got ripped off by not getting money off Jay-z sampling his voice, basically making him look like a tool.
Nas not dropping one hot album since illmatic which was a long ass time ago, and wasn't relevant at the time, check.
And he already made allusions to fucking Nas' baby momma in Takeover, in the last few lines.

Would you look at that, all in one verse he trashed Nas.

[dead prez]

PHUCK you I only said that cuz I liked arguing against that nas stan stillmatic, phuk you

[classthe_king]

Maybe if u take ur L peacefully everyone will forget

[dead prez]

Goin through those all threads, I miss freespeech actually.

btw this was hilarious

Devil's Advocate looks like an Elephants ass n shit
Cause he's so fat in his shirt that shows hi massive tits

going through old threads and shit

[classthe_king]

That line is awesome tbh

[dead prez]

Okay first off I'll applaud you for actually giving me some time to kill, but please the knock off the ad hominems. You're acting like I hate Jay z I don't. I consider Reasonable Doubt and TBA classics albums in the same vein as R2D. I didn't pull this bullshit with you when you defended Relapse's quality and just called you a stan, and say your opinion held less weight cause of that.

If dead prez wasn't so bias against Jay-Z, his breakdown would hold more merit.

I'm both a Nas and Jay-Z fan, and I'm still on the fence when it comes to what is the better diss, since both are without a doubt some of the best diss records in the history of rap.

Takeover seems to be a bit more casual, as the entire song was a diss to several rappers... where Ether was a long onslaught dedicated to Jay-Z.... which is what hurts it at the same time.

And that's why Ether was better it focused all it's energy on Jay z rather than trying to kill two birds with one stone it focused all it's energy on Jigga with subtle jabs at his weedcarriers Beanie Siegel and Memphis Bleek. Honestly the problem with Takever was that it was just "laying the facts" but did it in a bland and boring way and wasn't funny or enticing really (other than that glorious beat), also the biggest misstep in that song which caused Jay to lose the beef was not mentioning him fucking Nas' wife right away. But since he retaliated with Supa Ugly after getting his face corroded with acid it was a desperate move, that pretty much gave him an automatic self knockout.

Jay-Z's Nas diss on Takeover was quick and to the point.... say what you want about Nas today, but back then, many fans weren't too fond of It was Written.

Which is why it's dated and doesn't hold up, a good diss should be universal. And lots of the points brought up in ether still applies to jay z in a way and aren't dated.

The album was seen as a knock off of other Mafioso rap albums and as a "sell out" move by many fans of Illmatic. So what Jay-Z said on Takeover must have really stung Nas, not to mention that he followed that album up with another lack luster effort, Oochie Wally, and what many fans/critics consider his worst album (Nastradamus).

All of this applies to Jay z as well, cause Nas sure wasn't biting Jigga that's for sure. Also nas already had the Pablo escobar moniker in an Eye for an Eye back in 95 he was already heading in that direction, and that's about a year before reasonable doubt even came out.

You can't look back at it now and say "but Nas has been better than Jay-Z since then", you have to look at the record during it's time of release and what relevance and impact it had.... Jay-Z was dropping nothing but facts. You can argue your subjective opinions on Jay's discography to that date, but the fact remains... Jay-Z was amongst the hottest rappers in the game during that time (along with Eminem and Nelly). His volume 1, 2, and 3 were wildly successful and catapulted Jay-Z to heights Nas had never reached... which in turn made people acknowledge, appreciate, and respect his slept on debut, Reasonable Doubt.

Come on man, I'll give you volume 1 possibly but let's not act like vol 2 & 3 were stellar records rather than just dull turds with jay hopping on the shiny suit bandwagon.

To be quite honest Nas and Jay'z careers mirror each other more than people admit in quality wise. Dropped stellard debuts, followed by their sophmore release getting mixed results only to get more warmly received later on. Than they also released dud group albums with the dynasty and The Firm. They both really got better post Stillmatic-The Blueprint and had somewhat of a comeback album following their middling blegh. Which is Kingdome Come and Street's disciples with HHID and AG.

Lol @ you using sales or popularity to argue it's quality come on , if you're gonna go that route than you have to admit Yeezus is a bonafied classic despite you're subjective opinion of it with it's reception by the likes of pitchfork and other review sites.

Which brings me to Ether.... there is a reason why people say "I ethered you" or "he got ethered". Ether is hard hitting in many ways (many of which dead prez stated) and during it's time, it was widely regarded as the hardest diss track, EVER. Not only was it full of hard hitting punchlines and witty lines, it was also Nas's return to glory... in the eyes of many, Nas was done for.... until Ether and Stillmatic came out. It was the underdog swinging back and winning. The only flaws in it are the childish filler lines.... as I said, that is a result of Nas dedicating an entire song to Jay-Z.... had he given him one verse the way Jay did on Takeover, completely void of playground insults, then people wouldn't be questioning it today. But overall, it's still one of the greatest diss records of all time and will forever be remembered as such....

It might be filled with playground insults but that's what makes it so funny and enticing, it's entertatining watching Nas clown on jay z while still dropping relevant disses (I covered that already) and doing them subtly. It's not a just a boring list of facts, if it did just list facts it'd only be half as good.

[BadMeetsEvilTwin]

Takeover was more clever but Ether was more powerful on impact

[Notalius]

tbh



~

[dead prez]

I'm not acting like you hate Jay-Z. It just sounds like you weren't giving Takeover any props for being the excellent diss record it is.

Oh I think it's a great song just as a diss, it's very overrated. Kinda like how I think I Gave You Power is an overrated storytelling track but excellent song.

C'mon man.... bland and boring? Those "faaaaaameeee" and "laaaaaameeeee" chants are classic. Bringing up his Karl Kani modeling after Nas called Jay-Z gay....

I found thos chants ridiculously corny tbh, as for that Karl Kani modeling I don't get how that's an insult. Nas didn't pose nude like Big Daddy Kane did, he just wore their clothing. This line is about as insulting as Nas telling Jay z he can't grow facial hair with the whiskers like a rat line.

Had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage
Fell from "top 10" to "not mentioned at all"
To your bodyguard's "Oochie Wally"'s verse better than yours
Matter of fact you had the worst flow on the whole fucking song
But I know: the sun don't shine, then son don't shine
That's why your (lame) career's come to an end
It's only so long fake thugs can pretend
Nigga, you ain't live it
You witnessed it from your folks' pad
You scribbled it in your notepad and created your life
I showed you your first Tec, on tour with Large Professor
Then I heard your album about your Tec on the dresser
So yeah, I sampled your voice, you was using it wrong
You made it a hot line, I made it a hot song
And you ain't get a coin, nigga, you was getting fucked then
I know who I paid, God - Serchlite publishing
Use your (brain)
You said you've been in this 10, I've been in it 5 - smarten up, Nas
4 albums in 10 years, nigga? I could divide
That's one every...let's say 2
2 of them shits was due
1 was "nah," the other was Illmatic
That's a one-hot-album-every-10-year average
And that's so (lame)
Nigga, switch up your flow
Your shit is garbage
What you trying to kick, knowledge?

Those lines sting because AT THE TIME they were true, and that's all that matters in beef. You can't look at the future because it didn't exist. Nas was at an ALL TIME LOW when the Takeover dropped. He called him a "fake thug" because at first Nas wasn't "Escobar"... he was a kid from the projects that witnessed it from a "project window". Jay-Z is taking a jab at how Nas went from being an observational conscious type of rapper, to being a Mafioso thug.... then later pokes fun at him again with the "what you tryna kick knowledge?"

I already explained why I don't think it was hard hitting other than being dated Jay'z is being hypocrtical (Nas is too in ether with calling Jay z a sellout) and like I said nobody listens to somebody's songs at their lowest point and say DAMN THEY GOT MURKED. I mean do people really bring up Eminem getting outshined by TI at his lowpoint? No people bring up features like Renegade or Verbal Intercourse when both artists are at their prime and bring their a game and one still gets outshined or embarassed.

As far as Nas with Escobar is concerned he created a persona yeah? What of it? Are we gonna call Eminem fake cause he created a slim shady alias to rap about raping bitches and using it as an outlet to express creativity, not unlike Nas?? I mean if we are than let's all get on G rap's case for not being a mob boss and raping bitches like he did in Train Robbery. Realness as a rapper is just irrelevant nowadays, when you got white boys like Lil Ugly Mane making Mista Thug Isolation it just drives a stake through all that realness bs, unless you're gonna say GRODT is GOAT cause 50 cent is hood.

He also pokes fun at how Nas gets taken advantage of by the music industry (like Serchlite getting paid for Jay-Z sampling Nas's voice on Dead Presidents and Nas not seeing a dime for it).

I already conceded to this being one of the more underrated and stinging lines that is overlooked, though honestly the fact that he samples Nas in the first place is sorta admitting he puts on a pedestal and considers him dope. So....

Oh and....

"Because you-know-who did you-know-what with you-know-who
But let's keep that between me and you (for now)"

He did mention fucking Nas's baby mama.... he just did it in a much more personal/witty way.... picture Nas listening to that.... c'mon son.

I know that and rather alluding to it he should have done it than and there.
Also not to go off topic but beyonce was a nas groupie in Nas' lowest point in his oochie wallie years, loll. If only they beefed a little later.

I completely disagree with this. Disses are supposed to be dated.... they are a moment in time. Nas and Jay-Z squashed the beef and have collaborated numerous times, so following your logic, that makes both of the disses dated....

Uh you're not getting what I'm saying are you? No they absolutely do not have to be dated, look at the nail in the coffin is that dated? And the one non dated line from Jay z that still holds up is Nas not getting paid when he sampled him oh and him being some model, lol.

Whereas Ether addressed allegations of Jay z being a biter which is absolutely NOT dated and probably more relevant than ever, and had to have address these allegations in TBA. Or half the insults used were coined or polarized in Ether (ether, stan, camel). Or that Jay was a nas stan constantly wanting to collab with him at the time but felt insulted cause Nas wouldn't give him the time of day and so and so forth.

The main insult towards Nas such as falling off is dated and happened at the worst time since he resuscitated his career right after that diss, lol. That diss would sting a 1000X more if he used it on Prodigy instead who fell the fuck off a while ago.

How does it apply to Jay-Z? Jay-Z's debut IS a Mafioso rap album and a legitimate one... seeing as Jay-Z was a drug dealer the years leading up to it.... and his sophomore effort only blew him up even more.... and then his 3rd one took him to another level.... and his 4th.... Jay-Z was only getting bigger while Nas was falling off.

Jay'z's was a mafiaso just like OB4CL and Live and let die loll, and are we gonna get at G rap's case for not being "legitamate". Like I said I don't care if it's real or not, personally think it's definitely exaggerated RD the stories told, and he definitely took liberties with it but whatever. We're not gonna give pablo escobar points if he comes out with an album are we?

Also Jay completely switched his styles post Illmatic (whether or not it's a direct case of illmatic is debated) from rapping with iggidy flow to rapping with a more laidblack flow with more clarity and of course used mafioso cause it was popular. Lol if you're gonna act like it was any other reason than that was the cool sub genre to use.

Also IWW sold a lot more than RD at the time, RD was like illmatic that regard and was a commerical success and Nas' highest selling album.

As far as Jay getting more popular with his subsequent VOL releases, well so did Kanye with Graduation and 808s but you'd be hardpressed to find people argue those two are better than College dropout and Late registration.

Vol.2 is my favorite of all the volume series.... but let's not get subjective opinions involved in this debate. I'm not using sales or popularity to argue quality, I never did.... I'm only saying that what Jay-Z said on Takeover IS true.... which goes back to my previous point... at the time of the Takeover, Jay-Z was only getting bigger while Nas was falling off, thus making Jay's lines that much more hard hitting. He hit Nas with the truth.

What are you using than? You're using jay'z growing popularity as to him being able to use the YOU DONE FELL OFF line when he should absolutely not be throwing stones at the time. Nas was falling off yeah and jay was getting bigger yeah but the quality of the albums were lesser that was until blueprint and stillmatic came.

Another subjective opinion, I find some of them to be funny, I find some of them to be stupid. The way Jay clowned on Nas was just as good, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

And I'm disagreein with that, which ones do you find stupid? I'm not gonna pretend that he did throw in some childish disses, but most of them were on point and brought some much needed to the diss records but are only superficially shallow, they can easily be dissected.

[dead prez]

I'm not taking your points out of context I'm contextualizing the disses and giving reasons as to why they don't hold up or are horribly dated and or both.

And I don't care that it matters for others, and I doubt you do too, so like why are you're even arguing in that favor. What matters is your opinion, first and foremost. It's like you're so adamant to accept if something is classic yet refuse to critique or analyze it yourself, that's what you're doing with this argument basically.

And they are valid jabs if Jay z was being hypocritical and it applied to him as well, and I 100 disagree. We're the ones in the long run that dissect and determine whether or not a diss is considered good or not. Not whether or not the rappers in question think they're dope.

And if this isn't even your beliefs and you find it stupid why even argue it?? You're basically arguing that the brunt of Takeover's disses are wack but are just "accepting it". Well that's what your post comes across as.

I still somewhat get a chuckle at the Gay z and cockafella records line it's so childish and obvious but it works, the whiskers like a rat line though I already admitted was a rather meh diss.

[Infinitestrife]

Takeover was FACTS.. plain and simple.