Best dictator.. (stalin vs hitler)

[Curious]

U people eat propoganda for breakfast, im sorry u guys dont have a mind of ur own. If the TV tells u that stalin was bad ull believe. Just like they did with Sadam and iraq(in future ofcourse people will forget and it will seem like iraq was actually hostile).

U fail to notice how ever the drop in crime rates and overall mortality in those years. Those "millions" of people that they claim to have been victims of stalins regieme for some reason dont add pretty welll if u actually consider looking through the numbers. Some go as far as exagerating the numbers so greatly, it seems like a dumb joke. 100 of thousands of victims of COLD WAR - yes, given time and ease in the relationships between other countries, there would definately be less people to suffer. The mortality rates now are much higher then they were before, it is actually soviet unions fall that killed millions.

Racism and crime killed millions in america, but hey that doesnt really count does it, its America the land of the "free"( free as in, slaves to corporations ). The fact is there is also an ifo war, america ieasily wins it, considering the amounts of media it controls.

Soviet Union at the time - had less crime, kids were actually studying and kids went crazy about sports, they worked for a salary and lived normal lives, went to cinemas and dance clubs. The only thing u couldnt do at the time use capitalism for profit, and discuss politics. The thing is, most of the people already have the image of stalin in their head , an image that was creater by the Hatefull greedy western world, a world wich makes wars to make profit, were every president considersit his need to go start another war.

Okay i gotta say this, and then you can get mad at me and everything, but you keep talking about how we've been indoctrinated by western propaganda - have you ever stopped to think about how you've been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda in school?
Stalin sent millions of people to prison camps, no wonder there was less crime, the downside just was that he also sent millions of innocent people to camps for opposing his regime and that's what makes a dictator, a person who cannot tolerate opposition. Millions of people died in these prison camps during his regime due to starvation, torture, horrible weather conditions, hard labour and generally inhumane conditions. Maybe if you've had family who'd been subjected to these things you'd see things from a more diverse perspective, but the Soviet propaganda machine has been as efficient as the western.
History is not an objective size, it's subjective depending on the viewpoint of the person creating it - i agree that the west has had a tendency to paint a picture of Russia as a horrible country full of evil villains, but to paint a picture of Stalin as a hero and Russia as an ideal country during his reign is really to walk through life blindfolded. So many people went through an absolutely horrid time during his reign.
I know you're gonna be pissed at me for saying this, and i really don't mean any disrespect, i just think it's a very important task in life to learn to be critical towards the stories we've been fed through public channels in general, and you do have a tendency to think that western governments have been feeding the public only lies about Russia and that everything you've been told is true - the truth usually lies somewhere in between.

[AspirinE]

U people eat propoganda for breakfast, im sorry u guys dont have a mind of ur own. If the TV tells u that stalin was bad ull believe. Just like they did with Sadam and iraq(in future ofcourse people will forget and it will seem like iraq was actually hostile).

U fail to notice how ever the drop in crime rates and overall mortality in those years. Those "millions" of people that they claim to have been victims of stalins regieme for some reason dont add pretty welll if u actually consider looking through the numbers. Some go as far as exagerating the numbers so greatly, it seems like a dumb joke. 100 of thousands of victims of COLD WAR - yes, given time and ease in the relationships between other countries, there would definately be less people to suffer. The mortality rates now are much higher then they were before, it is actually soviet unions fall that killed millions.

Racism and crime killed millions in america, but hey that doesnt really count does it, its America the land of the "free"( free as in, slaves to corporations ). The fact is there is also an ifo war, america ieasily wins it, considering the amounts of media it controls.

Soviet Union at the time - had less crime, kids were actually studying and kids went crazy about sports, they worked for a salary and lived normal lives, went to cinemas and dance clubs. The only thing u couldnt do at the time use capitalism for profit, and discuss politics. The thing is, most of the people already have the image of stalin in their head , an image that was creater by the Hatefull greedy western world, a world wich makes wars to make profit, were every president considersit his need to go start another war.

Okay i gotta say this, and then you can get mad at me and everything, but you keep talking about how we've been indoctrinated by western propaganda - have you ever stopped to think about how you've been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda in school?
Stalin sent millions of people to prison camps, no wonder there was less crime, the downside just was that he also sent millions of innocent people to camps for opposing his regime and that's what makes a dictator, a person who cannot tolerate opposition. Millions of people died in these prison camps during his regime due to starvation, torture, horrible weather conditions, hard labour and generally inhumane conditions. Maybe if you've had family who'd been subjected to these things you'd see things from a more diverse perspective, but the Soviet propaganda machine has been as efficient as the western.
History is not an objective size, it's subjective depending on the viewpoint of the person creating it - i agree that the west has had a tendency to paint a picture of Russia as a horrible country full of evil villains, but to paint a picture of Stalin as a hero and Russia as an ideal country during his reign is really to walk through life blindfolded. So many people went through an absolutely horrid time during his reign.
I know you're gonna be pissed at me for saying this, and i really don't mean any disrespect, i just think it's a very important task in life to learn to be critical towards the stories we've been fed through public channels in general, and you do have a tendency to think that western governments have been feeding the public only lies about Russia and that everything you've been told is true - the truth usually lies somewhere in between.

U see those people a victims of Stalin, but i see them as victims of post war depression and cold war. The situation how ever is greatly exagerated. The situation at time could have been way worse. I for one believe that if Stalin hadnt been as he was, we wouldnt have been able to hold oposition to the NUCLEAR WAR, if not for USSR, who knows how many more people would have been killed in conflicts. And no mater how much so called "tyranny" we endured, life actually got better check the statistics if u wont take my word for it.

The US goverment has been feeding nuthing but lies and corruption for 30 years now. The nation that once had moral values and looked a promising future for the world is now nutin but a corporation puppet. Europe is great at wat there doing now, but it stands no oposition to America, untill they finally enforce united laws and get more control in this world. Somehow America always gets a pass to break universal laws and human rigts and people gladly eat the bullshit the media tells them. Thats world-wide tyrrany.

Curious, had u ever stopped to think about the advantages , it seems like u havent. There are a lot of advantages, such as social values and a search for unity and peace. A socialist country doesnt seek to start war, it works within its own country to improve the situation. Too much money however is spent for prepartions in case of war, and that is because, if one country looses its guards it becomes an open target for countries that are willing to invest money into war.

Ohh and wat made u think that i would get mad a you curious? Im protecting my opinion, coz somehow wenever there is a discussion about socialism, shit becomes blown out of proportion and fills up with blind hate towards it. I think people should really try to understand the meaning behind one regime and the other, before using strong words like "tyrany".
As for propoganda - the "propoganda" wasnt fed to the rest of the world to ruin an image of the country. America however did so. Ive had family members that lived through it, had those that survived the war, and those that lived in small apartments but not "inhumane" as u call them. I myself lived in an apartment that was built during the comunist times, and i had a football pitch and and a hockey ring outside with humongous area.


USSR's policy was to stop and control americas propoganda, and the only way to do that is is concentrate on your own. Our propoganda was -"stop pdeviding people into social structures and maintan moral values", Us propoganda was -"They are evil and they wont let us live in peace".
Glorifying ur leader is not propoganda, if u consider it that way then advertisements and comercialness should be considered capytalistic propoganda .

The question really is - WHO STARTED THIS SHIT? This shit was started by the US, they were an aspiring country back in the days, they had to beat competion to succeed in shifting power towards the west. The only way to do that is to bring down the most succesfull nation in the world.

[Curious]

U see those people a victims of Stalin, but i see them as victims of post war depression and cold war. The situation how ever is greatly exagerated. The situation at time could have been way worse. I for one believe that if Stalin hadnt been as he was, we wouldnt have been able to hold oposition to the NUCLEAR WAR, if not for USSR, who knows how many more people would have been killed in conflicts. And no mater how much so called "tyranny" we endured, life actually got better check the statistics if u wont take my word for it.

The people Stalin put in prison camps were victims of Stalin, not depression and cold war. One of the reasons he did it was to suppress opposition.
I'm sure that plenty of people lead a good life, but that doesn't excuse him killing millions of his own citizens.

Curious, had u ever stopped to think about the advantages , it seems like u havent. There are a lot of advantages, such as social values and a search for unity and peace. A socialist country doesnt seek to start war, it works within its own country to improve the situation. Too much money however is spent for prepartions in case of war, and that is because, if one country looses its guards it becomes an open target for countries that are willing to invest money into war.

Communist countries are not the only countries founded on an ideology stressing social values - my own country is based on a mixture of liberal and social values and has one of the world's best social security systems, lowest number of poor people in the world and the smallest gap between rich and poor. I don't think the main problem for communist countries was preparations for war, I think a lot of the reason why the communist system has collapsed has to do with the fact that the governments were oppressing it's people - communist ideology is not a bad ideology, it has been handled badly. When people in power start use that power to gain privileges while the rest of the population don't have at least some of the same opportunities it's bound to go wrong.

Ive had family members that lived through it, had those that survived the war, and those that lived in small apartments but not "inhumane" as u call them. I myself lived in an apartment that was built during the comunist times, and i had a football pitch and and a hockey ring outside with humongous area.

I wasn't talking about conditions in the USSR during your lifetime when I said conditions were inhumane - I was talking about the conditions millions of people lived under during Stalins regime. I'm quite aware that living in a small apartment cannot be compared to living in a prison camp in Siberia

The question really is - WHO STARTED THIS SHIT? This shit was started by the US, they were an aspiring country back in the days, they had to beat competion to succeed in shifting power towards the west. The only way to do that is to bring down the most succesfull nation in the world.

i don't think we'd ever agree on that the USSR was the most successful nation in the world - looking at living standards, crime rates, social security etc. there are plenty of countries that have been more successful. the US didn't bring the USSR and the rest of Eastern Europe to it's knees, they managed to do so themselves. The revolution took place from the inside, people started to demand freedom and opportunities, and when the communist system collapsed in some of the Eastern European countries the USSR lost its political allies and reform was inevitable.

[AspirinE]

The people Stalin put in prison camps were victims of Stalin, not depression and cold war. One of the reasons he did it was to suppress opposition.
I'm sure that plenty of people lead a good life, but that doesn't excuse him killing millions of his own citizens.

It was result of cold war, coz people were paranoid on bothe sides, but the numbers werent so great as millions...

Communist countries are not the only countries founded on an ideology stressing social values - my own country is based on a mixture of liberal and social values and has one of the world's best social security systems, lowest number of poor people in the world and the smallest gap between rich and poor. I don't think the main problem for communist countries was preparations for war, I think a lot of the reason why the communist system has collapsed has to do with the fact that the governments were oppressing it's people - communist ideology is not a bad ideology, it has been handled badly. When people in power start use that power to gain privileges while the rest of the population don't have at least some of the same opportunities it's bound to go wrong.

Ur country is smaller and smaller countries are easier to provide for. Im all for Democracy, dont get me wrong, but ive witnessed how the working class looks and the condition they live in, and it is the main reason i think the working class has rights to demand the money milked from them buy fat bastarts that have acres of land and two cars he barely rides. The money from those people alone could feed millions of less fortunate people, that simply cant use the oprtunities, coz they are disrespected a social layer.

I wasn't talking about conditions in the US during your lifetime when I said conditions were inhumane - I was talking about the conditions millions of people lived under during Stalins regime. I'm quite aware that living in a small apartment cannot be compared to living in a prison camp in Siberia

I feel no pitty for capitalists that went to jail for stealing from less fortunate social layers, so my view on this is completely different.

i don't think we'd ever agree on that the USSR was the most successful nation in the world - looking at living standards, crime rates, social security etc. there are plenty of countries that have been more successful. the US didn't bring the USSR and the rest of Eastern Europe to it's knees, they managed to do so themselves. The revolution took place from the inside, people started to demand freedom and opportunities, and when the communist system collapsed in some of the Eastern European countries the USSR lost its political allies and reform was inevitable.

[/quote]

Russia hasnt been touched for hundreds of years, monarchy of course could have gotten us further, but ohh well, wat happened happened. I suppose the people that were workers during that time, survived something similar to wat england in its early industrial years - wen many people suffered from the conditions caused by difference in social structures.


Dont get me wrong however, i support Socialist ideology and believe that it could progress to something better if it had time and no opposition. There are sacrifices to make in this world and everybody has to make them, i just dont support the idea of putting the burden on other people.

[Fi.J.]

both wre disastrous and killed a lot of pple!thuogh hitler was worst,his ideas of the arian race are horrible..

[AspirinE]

stalin was a mad man that killed more than hitler, but he did it quietly, *example*, hed send someone to kill you, and when that guy comes back, hed kill him personaly...that way no one knows, he was more of a sick mastermind than hitler, i think hes russian or maybe german, somtin like that......and by the way i am jewish and not embarresd, and us jews dispise those both but hitler was worse.....

Ur an idiot...... how can u say that stalin killed more than HItler...

Go to fucking school.

Stalin was no saint, but u can NEVER compare him to Hitler.

no, your an idiot.........that is what i learned at school.....and he killed a very large amount, about 4 million that are known about, their could be millions more...hitler killed approximitly, 7 million jews(six that are known for sure) and probably another 2 million polish german and so on,.....

Stalin did not kill such large amounts...

the people are counting numbers of people that died from hunger postwar, and the casualties of the war against germans.

Ur now saying 4 million, then i hear some other dude saying 40 million and the over day i saw someone say 100 million.

600000 people were acounted as criminals at that time and suffered from the regime. The rest died as result of war and post war depression, and witht the amount of hate stalin gets ofcourse the numbers are greatly exagerated.

[Ivy]

To solve this arguement now...everyone check out Stalin at


http://www.wikipedia.com



Some of their information is sourceful, especially big "figures".....just a suggestion...before this turns worse....

[AspirinE]

if ur sure than my teacher sucks shit

its just the way things are these days. U cant really tell wat to trust.
I was simply trying to point out that these numbers are very exagerated.

And it just amazes me that some people voted for Stalin, even though stalin was at war with the germans at the time, and that millions (icluding two of my greatgrandfathers) died in that war protecting us from a Tyran.


Sorry for calling u stupid... its just me overreacting- i hate propoganda and racist bullshit

[Ivy]

Well no offence since you guys are resolving things Asp..but how do you think people feel for the majority voting Hitler??? He was just as bad from the information that I've compared between the two individuals...they both slaughtered thousands...tried to gain control over something that rightfully wasn't theirs....and they both had strong governments and mass weapons and ammunition....just don't understand your logic..but hey...it's all good...

[AspirinE]

Well no offence since you guys are resolving things Asp..but how do you think people feel for the majority voting Hitler??? He was just as bad from the information that I've compared between the two individuals...they both slaughtered thousands...tried to gain control over something that rightfully wasn't theirs....and they both had strong governments and mass weapons and ammunition....just don't understand your logic..but hey...it's all good...

US too tries to get control and is the influence for many crimes around the world but, it doesnt get that much hate for it.

Stalin himself isnt the murder of these millions of people, its the regieme, and as for the death toll - id say if u discount the war casualties, ull have a number of mortality no greater than in US ... Its a matter of perspective. They have been trying to put stalins name in the dirt for 30 years and it did work, but is just another scape goat at wich people can point and blame shit, and use the advantage.


I remeber a billboard in my town that said "NO! to nuclear chaos", sometimes im glad that we actually had nuclear weapons. Coz if we didnt we would have just been dogged out of ritchousness.

[Ivy]

Well said.....

[Ivy]

You can't take it in that perspective...she had to do a paper and she wanted to know what we "the members of the forum" thought...and she is entitled of free speech on this forum under certain rules...and even if it did affect you...don't post in here..it's as simple as that...

[Ivy]

no... u must have taken me the wrong way, im not complaining of the pole, i said i was angry at it, not at who wrote it or started it, but at the issue (it brought up things i learned at school and so on), its hard to explain

Oh, well next time try to elaborate more revise what you have wrote and make sure it can't really be taken to ways... Just some little friendly adive

[AspirinE]

You can't take it in that perspective...she had to do a paper and she wanted to know what we "the members of the forum" thought...and she is entitled of free speech on this forum under certain rules...and even if it did affect you...don't post in here..it's as simple as that...

Were debating, there will always be two sides. But those that dont agree with stalin being a "tyran" will speak out there opinion, many people believe that he helped the russians to protect ourselves during the war.

[Ivy]

To be honest...I just heard of Stalin yesterday when I saw this pole..and I went and read a little bit about him...and then reviewed a little more on Hitler and compared the two....I can't really say what is and what isn't...so that's my fault...and I openly admit it....