EminemBase's Weekly Round-Up - #1

[DanWS]

I mean that h is content and execution are nearly always justified in respects to global recognition, in comparison to most others not just that 'the music is better'.

If what you're basically saying there is that his content appeals to a broader audience then I understand your point a little more clearly now. You just threw me off a little with the word 'execution' as to me that that connotes his technical ability rather than what I now think what you meant, which is his ability to execute his content in a way that captures the imagination of a broad audience.

But it's also a cop-out as, whilst opinion is based on taste - There are OBJECTIVE reasoning points behind all taste such as: universal agreement in aesthetics and sound. It's not a coincidence the majority in the know think Mozart / classical music is mind-blowing.

It's not a coincidence that almost anybody who's seen it thinks The Godfather is one of the greatest films ever made, irrespective of whether they like gangster movies or not.

It's a really weak escape-route to just say "it's all subjective". It's not ALL subjective. You can't tell somebody their opinion is wrong as a fact but you can certainly debate why you think X is more tasteful than Y or why said thing is funnier than Z. And you can back up taste with logic as, as 'subjective' as taste is, it's all rooted in logic and reasoning of some kind.

I'd say when it comes to music its mostly subjective. It's really not a cop-out, it's just obvious. That logic and reasoning that people will use to put forward their argument is rooted from each individuals personal experiences and feelings toward particular subjects. Person A can love "Love The Way You Lie" because it relates to their own experiences while person B might not have any kind of connection with it so doesn't attach any kind of feeling to it. Both parties can put forward their logic, and then 10 more people can come and join person A's side so its 11-1. And although this majority would show that the song reaches a lot of people, it doesn't make party A's logic any more valid than person B's logic. It doesn't make it any more objective and it can't be proven that this song is better than another song. What it does do however, is show you that this song strikes a chord with a broad audience, it touches a lot of people, but that doesn't make it any more objective because it's all rooted from the people's personal feelings. There would just be a higher general consensus that the song is well-liked. Some people will hate that song. They'll think the chorus sucks, that Rihanna's voice is awful and Eminem's content is trash. Just cuz it might only be 1 out of 50 people that think that, they will still have completely valid reasons of their own to have that subjective opinion about it. They just wouldnt be in that higher consensus of people who like it.

[EminemBase]

^ My original reply stands, as a response to that.

I don't think you got what I meant entirely with some of it. Maybe I didn't explain it well-enough. I can't be fucked to keep talking at length atm though, I have work to do.

Let's just accept we're in disagreement about what mainstream is or what Eminem's music is.

[GenePeer]

Mainstream, in the way people here are using it = watered down / compromised.

I find that to be a really poor definition. How come people say Recovery's production is mainstream but the songs generally aren't? Because beats can be watered down? I think mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy), compromised or not. That's the definition I was using when I said Space Bound, LTWYL, etc were mainstream songs; just a single curse line wouldn't remove SB from the list. Anyway, let's not turn this into an argument of what mainstream means; the thread is about weekly Em news.

[EminemBase]

Mainstream, in the way people here are using it = watered down / compromised.

I find that to be a really poor definition. How come people say Recovery's production is mainstream but the songs generally aren't? Because beats can be watered down? I think mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy), compromised or not. That's the definition I was using when I said Space Bound, LTWYL, etc were mainstream songs; just a single curse line wouldn't remove SB from the list. Anyway, let's not turn this into an argument of what mainstream means; the thread is about weekly Em news.

People say Recovery's production is mainstream as it imitates other production. Its aim isn't to sound very particular and unique, its aim is basically to fit in and appeal.

The reason Eminem's songs are not like that are because his song-content does not aim to do that. You can't call it mainstream because it's catchy, that is absurd.

"Kill You" is also catchy, but would you say that song has mass-appeal? "Stay Wide Awake" is catchy - They're catchy because of his melodic rhythmic, because of his flows and delivery. Being catchy doesn't make it mainstream, that just makes it catchy. All of his songs are catch, fucking "Just Don't Give a Fuck" is catchy. He's always been catchy.

That just makes it good music. It just depends why it's catchy, his music is catchy because he has an ear for rhythm.

The aim of those songs is not to appeal to as many people as possible at once, that is the only definition of popular or mainstream that makes sense. A camel designed by committee. And Eminem's lyrics and content are the OPPOSITE of that. He's a single-vision.

He's an acquired taste, as is his music and his content. His songs are not mainstream. They're just catchy so succeed in the mainstream. But he doesn't water himself down or compromise artistry in the process, so he's mainstream by chance, by association - Not by intent.

[GenePeer]

I know earlier I said, "if mainstream isn't catchy then what is it?" which was a mistake on my part. But in that post you just quoted, I clearly said "I think Mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy)."

[EminemBase]

I know earlier is said, "if mainstream isn't catchy then what is it?" which was a mistake on my part. But in that post you just quoted, I clearly said "I think Mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy)."

Yeah... and mass-appeal is compromise. By definition.

Because if the aim is mass-appeal, you're trying to appeal to many people at once. Which means you need to compromise many elements at once, to make said thing pleasing to many people (with many different tastes), at once. That's what pop music is.

So by saying Eminem's are mass-appeal, it's the same as saying they're compromised. Eminem's songs are successful because they are catchy. But they are not compromised and they don't aim for mass-appeal. They may achieve it through sheer power of execution, but they're not compromised.

[GenePeer]

I know earlier is said, "if mainstream isn't catchy then what is it?" which was a mistake on my part. But in that post you just quoted, I clearly said "I think Mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy)."

Yeah... and mass-appeal is compromise. By definition.

Because if the aim is mass-appeal, you're trying to appeal to many people at once. Which means you need to compromise many elements at once, to make said thing pleasing to many people (with many different tastes), at once. That's what pop music is.

So by saying Eminem's are mass-appeal, it's the same as saying they're compromised. Eminem's songs are successful because they are catchy. But they are not compromised and they don't aim for mass-appeal. They may achieve it through sheer power of execution, but they're not compromised.

I never said his aim was to make songs with mass-appeal. In fact, I don't recall anyone mentioning that at all in this thread. I simply said that SB, LTWYL, NA, and T2M were mainstream songs because they had mass-appeal.

[xxTrigger1989xx]

I mean that Space Bound has a clear target audience, it sounds mainstream-ish, but overall I don't think it's really THAT mainstream to be honest. I hear plenty of differences between SB and LTWYL. You might hear it differently than I do

"Space Bound" is not mainstream at all.

People have no fucking idea what their own definition of that word even boils down to.

They think if it's catchy it's mainstream. So what, if it doesn't sound shit it's mainstream? lmfao. Good music doesn't = mainstream, catchy music doesn't = mainstream.

His execution and content is still totally unique to him.

Strangling a women with his bare-hands and then blowing his brains out? Yeah, how incredibly mainstream. You hear that on radio every day don't you.

Blood-suckin' succubuses, what the fuck is up with this?

= Nooooooot mainstream. It's just because he's incredibly melodic and rhythmic and makes catchy music no matter what his content is. That doesn't make it mainstream though, that makes it good.

I was gonna add the third verse as justification of why SB is not mainstream, but decided not to push the argument further by saying that to him

There are many different opinions from people of what mainstream actually is. Space Bound is not meant to sound mainstream, I was gonna add that as well but decided not to, but I can understand why someone would take it in that way, musically. Lyrically, it's not mainstream at all. His first verse is very poetic and the third verse violent. But the beat is what people probably think is so mainstream about it.

[EminemBase]

I know earlier is said, "if mainstream isn't catchy then what is it?" which was a mistake on my part. But in that post you just quoted, I clearly said "I think Mainstream is mass-appeal (usually catchy)."

Yeah... and mass-appeal is compromise. By definition.

Because if the aim is mass-appeal, you're trying to appeal to many people at once. Which means you need to compromise many elements at once, to make said thing pleasing to many people (with many different tastes), at once. That's what pop music is.

So by saying Eminem's are mass-appeal, it's the same as saying they're compromised. Eminem's songs are successful because they are catchy. But they are not compromised and they don't aim for mass-appeal. They may achieve it through sheer power of execution, but they're not compromised.

I never said his aim was to make songs with mass-appeal. In fact, I don't recall anyone mentioning that at all in this thread. I simply said that SB, LTWYL, NA, and T2M were mainstream songs because they had mass-appeal.

Yeah but they only have appeal because they're catchy.

People are implying they were made like pop songs, or they're somehow artistically broad or something. When you actually look at the content and Em's execution, it's not mainstream.

It's unique, it's him, it's personal, it's an acquired taste.

[AnalKiddo]

I don't think a rapper has ever won Album of the year, it be awesome if he does; he really deserves at least one

And I'd assume he's going to be performing too (LTWYL?)
What if he does No Love with Wayne

Either way I hope he does a performance!

[OneDream_89]

EminemBase
i really liked this weaks post cant wait for the nest one!

[Drucifer]

When you think about, Outkast and Lauren Hyll might have won album of the year before, but those albums were alot heavier on singing then Rapping, Lets be honest, we all known that Outkast album won more for Andre's "Love Below" then id did for Big Boi's "Speakerboxx".......... And Laurens album had alot more of her singing then rapping on it........Both great albums but not albums I really consider Rap, so If Recovery won that would, to me, be the first true rap album to win

Props to Embase, like the new column, will check it out each week

[EminemBase]

The execution sucks. It's not "totally him" at all. It sounds like an Eminem possessed by Lil Wayne when he says stuff like "I hear the sound of toilets flushing, some shit is going down."

The ones on Infinite weren't even that good. "You got no clout with a thing (um, what?)/you could date a stick of dynamite and couldn't go out with a bang." He's just taking idioms literally.

Who cares if you think the execution sucks or not? Now you're just talking about your taste, I don't care who thinks what does or doesn't suck. We're not talking about taste here.

But you have no idea if Eminem actually likes that style, you're just assuming because you think it's bad that what... he does too and is forcing himself to do something he dislikes? He obviously likes it. Whether or not you think they suck is a different conversation.

But they are totally him. He still totally puts his personality into the mic, 100%.

Kanye IS mainstream for using auto-tune. Kanye is about as mainstream as it gets. Crappy punch lines, Auto-Tune all over the place, generic lyrics.

No, Kanye IS NOT mainstream for using auto-tune.

Reason why is because Kanye is about as integral an artist as you get and if you can't see that you have no idea how to read people.

Again, whether you think he's a pile of shit or a genius is irrelevant to this point. Kanye is absolutely passionate about the art and that's all he cares about. He's not about fucking money or trivial aspects, he's absolutely in love with the vision. And that makes him a real artist. He takes risks, he constantly evolves and experiments and constantly pushes himself.

Those other fucks who copy him do it to try and dupe his praise or buck off the trend, not because they feel a reason to. Kanye used auto-tune for 808s because he can't fucking sing and felt he needed to express himself more than rap would allow him to. He was limited by his lack of talent so he used what tools he had to work around it and put out something he felt passionate about.

That's integral. He cares about what he's doing.

I've said all I want to say on this, so the rest of you can go back and forth till you're blue in the face. I can't be fucked though. Later.

[slimsoxshady]

^ "those other fucks that copy him" ?
lol what? Konvict Muzik made autotune popular middle of last decade...not Kanye West
Kanye West didn't re-invent the game with autotune, he copied the same guys you despise

[xxTrigger1989xx]

But you have no idea if Eminem actually likes that style, you're just assuming because you think it's bad that what... he does too and is forcing himself to do something he dislikes? He obviously likes it. Whether or not you think they suck is a different conversation.

But they are totally him. He still totally puts his personality into the mic, 100%.

Thank you

People love to act like he's being forced to do this style. He is 100% himself, all the time. Whether or not you like the material has nothing to do with it