Lowkey - Fire in the Booth (1XTRA)

[Hiphopdane]

You only need to look at what he has achieved to know he isn't ignorant at all. He obviously knows what he is doing.

Anybody who thinks he has never been something special lyrically got to listen to some of the stuff he wrote during his prime (and I don't mean The Blueprint). Yeah, he fell off big deal. Tons of great artists have done that....

[Xray]

You only need to look at what he has achieved to know he isn't ignorant at all. He obviously knows what he is doing.

Yeah I know what he's doing. Mind games.

[Tornado]

Problem is Uk Urban music is just a blatent copy of the US version in so many ways. Every N-Dubz, Chipmunk, Tinchy Stryder single has a blatent formula which means it appeals to general public whereas you have artists like Akala & Lowkey not following gimmicks who are well respected artists but not THAT much populary known. Sounds familar?

Image before Content? Yep. Typical Subject Matter? Yep.

There's one key difference though....The US music industry and trends affect everywhere else and changes the music wheras the other way round it would take something special for america to follow a popular trend from somewhere else

[EminemBase]

^ It goes back and forth though. And everybody borrows from each other. Different countries, cultures, backgrounds, artists, mindsets - Everything is a mesh of many things.

Which is why it's silly when people say "oh hip-hop is black music" and make a point of it like they own it. It's like "Yeah and where did hip-hop 'borrow' the foundation for its backdrop and beats from? OTHER GENRES". Hip-Hop by its very nature takes from everything else, no race or one culture owns anything.

And look at the bands that formed much of the most influential rock (and all its various variations) - The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, David Bowie etc. - All British. A lot of bands still influenced by those people today. SO then take the fact, early hip-hop groups certainly took influence or borrowed elements directly from or from people who were influenced or by those people, or who partly based their musicality on certain things which were done by etc. etc.

It goes on and on and round and round. So I wouldn't be so absolutist in saying UK Urban music is a copy of US American music when American music is a mesh of influences itself. Music is music, and each culture puts their own stamp on a genre or form of expression. And Grime is a lot faster, harder and typically more lyrically raw than US Hip-Hop now. It has in many ways advanced it sounds nothing like it, so it's futile to say it's a 'blatant copy' now.

We are all the sum of our parts, judge the end-result not the source.

And all those guys you mentioned are trash, they're hugely compromised or hugely untalented. Now, name somebody like Dizzee before he sold his soul - that is a talent.

[One Mic]

Problem is Uk Urban music is just a blatent copy of the US version in so many ways.

I forgot where it came from, but this is a quote from someone else which I agree with;

"Hip Hop is a different thing. You see hip hop, its grown already in America so when UK people do it it’s just seen as copying.

Whereas, Grime is original to the UK. People in Britain have built it (Grime) themselves so hopefully, slowly but surely we can make it big."

THIS is Grime, and this is ORIGINAL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEBJ_tYlMw8

and this is a UK Hip Hop song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5oXsjxqqvI

^ As good as some people might say it is, it's not original - Grime is.

[EminemBase]

^ Grime is an evolution of hip-hop.

It's a mesh of garage, dancehall and hip-hop. So it's not true to say Grime is original. Hardly anything is ORIGINAL. Hip-hop borrows from every other genre too.

It's just lame to try and put an absolutist ownership on art. Judge the end result.

[One Mic]

Hardly anything is ORIGINAL.

Very true!

But "UK Hip Hop" is essentially the same as US Hip Hop, except it's UK artists...obviously. At least with Grime, it's different, and although it may well be an evolution of hip-hop as MC's are still technically rapping over beats, Grime is quite unique. (well, it was) Kinda fell off now, it's peak was 2002-2006.

Until people have been to a proper grime rave, it may be difficult to understand.

Hip Hop tends to be 70 BPM (average)
Grime tends to be 140 BPM (average)

Dizzee WAS a unique grime mc - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_in_da_Corner

but NOW he is a generic 'urban pop star' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue_n%27_Cheek

[Yah-hah]

I recognize the last few minutes of it from the song Revolution. Lowkey has always been dope

[Block]

The original samples for hip hop instrumentals were sampled from jazz and blues, not rock. artists such as miles davis and coltrane. Essentially, hip hop is black culture. It's a derivative of jazz/blues which derive from gospel which derive from slave songs which got their start in africa. Only after run dmc did hip hop producers start sampling rock songs. Even then it was rare.

So yes, hip hop is essentially the evolution of black music. Along with r&b and gospel.

[EminemBase]

The original samples for hip hop instrumentals were sampled from jazz and blues, not rock. artists such as miles davis and coltrane. Essentially, hip hop is black culture. It's a derivative of jazz/blues which derive from gospel which derive from slave songs which got their start in africa. Only after run dmc did hip hop producers start sampling rock songs. Even then it was rare.

So yes, hip hop is essentially the evolution of black music. Along with r&b and gospel.

When did I say hip-hop sampled its foundation from rock?

I didn't. I simply inferred it has taken influence from rock to make a point. If you go back and re-read what I said, I think you'll find I say it's taken influence from many genres.

But rock is absolutely one of them. In terms of the attitude and angst, and there's always been a somewhat fond kinship between hip-hop and rock as sort of musical allies. Which is why they can go hand in hand so well. I simply said it took influence from it. Not that its original foundation was based upon it. I know it sampled from jazz, I'm not deaf, or ignorant.

[Block]

The original samples for hip hop instrumentals were sampled from jazz and blues, not rock. artists such as miles davis and coltrane. Essentially, hip hop is black culture. It's a derivative of jazz/blues which derive from gospel which derive from slave songs which got their start in africa. Only after run dmc did hip hop producers start sampling rock songs. Even then it was rare.

So yes, hip hop is essentially the evolution of black music. Along with r&b and gospel.

When did I say hip-hop sampled its foundation from rock?

I didn't. I simply inferred it has taken influence from rock to make a point. If you go back and re-read what I said, I think you'll find I say it's taken influence from many genres.

But rock is absolutely one of them. In terms of the attitude and angst, and there's always been a somewhat fond kinship between hip-hop and rock as sort of musical allies. Which is why they can go hand in hand so well. I simply said it took influence from it. Not that its original foundation was based upon it. I know it sampled from jazz, I'm not deaf, or ignorant.

rock wasn't even in the picture until run dmc. So no, rock didn't influence hip hop until that era.

[EminemBase]

The original samples for hip hop instrumentals were sampled from jazz and blues, not rock. artists such as miles davis and coltrane. Essentially, hip hop is black culture. It's a derivative of jazz/blues which derive from gospel which derive from slave songs which got their start in africa. Only after run dmc did hip hop producers start sampling rock songs. Even then it was rare.

So yes, hip hop is essentially the evolution of black music. Along with r&b and gospel.

When did I say hip-hop sampled its foundation from rock?

I didn't. I simply inferred it has taken influence from rock to make a point. If you go back and re-read what I said, I think you'll find I say it's taken influence from many genres.

But rock is absolutely one of them. In terms of the attitude and angst, and there's always been a somewhat fond kinship between hip-hop and rock as sort of musical allies. Which is why they can go hand in hand so well. I simply said it took influence from it. Not that its original foundation was based upon it. I know it sampled from jazz, I'm not deaf, or ignorant.

rock wasn't even in the picture until run dmc. So no, rock didn't influence hip hop until that era.

Why are you saying THAT era?

When did I define an era...

Like I said, and I'll say again - rock influenced hip-hop. That's ALL I said. I didn't specify which era, to what effect, I didn't say it was the basis of hip-hop's foundation. You're making all this up. Don't mis-mash my words and respond with selective memory.

I said, rock influenced hip-hop. That's a pretty obvious matter of fact.

[Block]

The original samples for hip hop instrumentals were sampled from jazz and blues, not rock. artists such as miles davis and coltrane. Essentially, hip hop is black culture. It's a derivative of jazz/blues which derive from gospel which derive from slave songs which got their start in africa. Only after run dmc did hip hop producers start sampling rock songs. Even then it was rare.

So yes, hip hop is essentially the evolution of black music. Along with r&b and gospel.

When did I say hip-hop sampled its foundation from rock?

I didn't. I simply inferred it has taken influence from rock to make a point. If you go back and re-read what I said, I think you'll find I say it's taken influence from many genres.

But rock is absolutely one of them. In terms of the attitude and angst, and there's always been a somewhat fond kinship between hip-hop and rock as sort of musical allies. Which is why they can go hand in hand so well. I simply said it took influence from it. Not that its original foundation was based upon it. I know it sampled from jazz, I'm not deaf, or ignorant.

rock wasn't even in the picture until run dmc. So no, rock didn't influence hip hop until that era.

Why are you saying THAT era?

When did I define an era...

Like I said, and I'll say again - rock influenced hip-hop. That's ALL I said. I didn't specify which era, to what effect, I didn't say it was the basis of hip-hop's foundation. You're making all this up. Don't mis-mash my words and respond with selective memory.

I said, rock influenced hip-hop. That's a pretty obvious matter of fact.[/quote]

Now you're playing games. You're relying on things you didn't say, yet you know were implied by your posts. Judging from the examples you gave, (the beatles, etc) it would lead one to believe that, since hip hp is a newer genre, you are speaking about the foundations of hip hop being laid with rock-roots. Now, of course you didn't say this outright, so you can easily claim I'm wrong for misinterpreting what you said; but we both know exactly what you meant; and you're wrong. Trying to claim, "i didn't specify a specific era." Is bullshit and you know it. and considering one of your arguments was that hip hop isn't ' black music' (which was my counter argument; not the rock argument) only fuels my belief that you were using rock as an example of am influential foundation for your reasoning behind hip hop not being purely black music. I then pointed out your error and I must have embarrassed you because you got defensive and quickly tried covering it up. Facts are facts. Omitting something but implying it is the same as directly saying it.

[Satire]

#9 vs. #3

K Block tryin to climb the ladder

[EminemBase]

Now you're playing games. You're relying on things you didn't say, yet you know were implied by your posts. Judging from the examples you gave, (the beatles, etc) it would lead one to believe that, since hip hp is a newer genre, you are speaking about the foundations of hip hop being laid with rock-roots.

No no, YOU are playing games. You are now trying to back-peddle your way out of words you put in my mouth. And, you'd be wise to check the history here, as it's recorded. And believe me, everything is in my favour, so think on.

I made a post saying everybody borrows from everybody, and basically that many genres are meshes and upshots of other genres. And as part of that post I used the example of rock and hip-hop, as they're two common-ground genres to speak on which most people know about.

At no point did I say rock was the influence for the foundation of hip-hop.

In fact, this is exactly what I said:
SO then take the fact, early hip-hop groups certainly took influence or borrowed elements directly from or from people who were influenced or by those people

EARLY hip-hop groups / took influence. Where in that do I say ALL hip-hop was based on rock? Were Run-DMC not an early hip-hop group? and did they not take influence from rock... I rest my case.

Now, of course you didn't say this outright, so you can easily claim I'm wrong for misinterpreting what you said; but we both know exactly what you meant; and you're wrong. Trying to claim, "i didn't specify a specific era." Is bullshit and you know it. and considering one of your arguments was that hip hop isn't ' black music' (which was my counter argument; not the rock argument) only fuels my belief that you were using rock as an example of am influential foundation for your reasoning behind hip hop not being purely black music. I then pointed out your error and I must have embarrassed you because you got defensive and quickly tried covering it up. Facts are facts. Omitting something but implying it is the same as directly saying it.

No that doesn't work I'm afraid. You can't bend logic to fit your definition of it. Reality is reality as we know it, not as you choose it, k? block.

You can't decide I'm implying something, decide you're right in your assumption of my implication, speak upon it like it's a fact and then conclude I'm the one who's being ambiguous lmao. You fool.

I'm not covering up anything, I have zero to hide. Would I really be inviting you and others to check the history of this and be quoting myself if I did... ? You just keep making it worse. Here's what REALLY happened thus far...

1. I made a post saying everybody borrows from everybody, basically just to make the point that very little is 'original' and it's babyish, futile and missing the point entirely to try and claim a race or one true source to a genre or artistic creation.

- I used British rock artists as an example because it illustrates the contrast of what I was saying perfectly. The constant clash and tit for tat mix and matching of UK / US culture.

2. You misread / misunderstood my post as me saying rock was the influence for the entire foundation of hip-hop and then began posting along that line of assumption as if reality. This being the perfect example of your fatal error / personal shape-shifting of what's actually true and what you assume, and would like to be true so you can argue with me.

3. Because you are arrogant and self-righteous, there's no way on Earth you'll admit you're wrong / either that or you're too stupid to see you're wrong and still genuinely think I was saying rock was the foundation of all hip-hop - Either way, you're now trying to once again flip reality to fit your favour, trying to make it seem as if I'm the one back-peddling.

My entire fucking point was that hip-hop is the sum of many parts, as are most genres. My point was that very little is just IT in an original form. Things borrow from each other by nature, people borrow from each other, we all take influence in abundance in constantly shifting variables. And that's truer in nowhere but art. So if that's my point, do you seriously think I'd be saying rock is the entire foundation for hip-hop? My god you're stupid.

But, unfortunately your pathetic blunder and lame tactics are as obvious as a hard-on in maths class. So be gone, moron.