Nas - Oochie Wally

[EminemBase]

The chorus is horrendous and obnoxious and unlike the Nas song it's actually Em rapping it, oh and I find his delivery lazy as fuck. The whole song is just a mess, there's no getting around it.

I guess you could say he intentionally tried to make a retarded song, but I don't really see how that strengthens your point tbh.

It strengthens my point of it being in a different category for the reasons I've said over and over. If he wanted it to sound ridiculous and it does, he's succeeded in it sounding ridiculous.

Now objectively, the result can still be - a horrible song.

But that's a different category to a song which is trying to be genuinely good or whatever, and failing in its aim. If he tried to make a political song which made a huge point for example and that point was lost, and not made very well. And it just came across as ill-informed etc...

That's a wholly different kind of failure.

Not all failures are the same and bad isn't just bad. The artist's intent or aim of the song changes everything. It's weird to say a song is retarded, if it's supposed to be. Fine to say it's awful, if it objectively sounds awful to your ears...

But, when the song is a concept and an idea, you have to take into account the concept and the artist's intent otherwise you may as well be judging white noise.

[FreeSpeech]

unmatched by anything made that was intended to be good.

I mean, I'm sure your parents had high hopes when they got pregnant with you

[Satire]

But really, what's the purpose of music? To be enjoyed by the listener. That's it. Biggie Weenie is less enjoyable than the other song so it was a bigger fail. That's it. There's no different categories or intent. You can't say Eminem PURPOSELY made the song bad, because if we want to go by your logic than making a song bad on purpose to begin with is in a completely different and bigger category of fail, unmatched by anything made that was intended to be good.

I love Biggie Weenie.

[EminemBase]

But really, what's the purpose of music? To be enjoyed by the listener. That's it. Biggie Weenie is less enjoyable than the other song so it was a bigger fail. That's it. There's no different categories or intent. You can't say Eminem PURPOSELY made the song bad, because if we want to go by your logic than making a song bad on purpose to begin with is in a completely different and bigger category of fail, unmatched by anything made that was intended to be good.

Well no that's not the purpose of music.

That's the purpose of some music. But, there's many different reasons for songs, especially in rap. Some songs are made to make the listener think, some to make them cry, some to make them uncomfortable; some songs are storytelling and take you on a journey etc.

Enjoyability isn't always the flat-out aim. Especially in hip-hop where rappers are constantly talking to the listener and the beat is often a back-drop for ideas or concepts.

And, I didn't say Eminem purposely made the song bad. I said he purposely made a ridiculous song. I still think he wanted it to be catchy, but he clearly wasn't being as witty as he could by calling his critics meanies. He was being childish, and tongue in cheek. Because he was a man in his early 30s, so it's supposed be funny due to his age and the context.

As for your last sentence I don't get what you mean...

But I'll say again that yes intent changes it entirely.

It's almost like trolling. If we were in an argument and I responded by saying "you're just a big smelly poop head who eats poop and smells of super poop" just to try and provoke you further... I mean, you wouldn't see that as totally obviously stupid?

And therefore, in a different category of insults to say... a GENUINE insult where I try to rip you apart and try my hardest to respond to your points. It's totally different.

[classthe_king]

That's the purpose of some music. But, there's many different reasons for songs, especially in rap. Some songs are made to make the listener think, some to make them cry, some to make them uncomfortable; some songs are storytelling and take you on a journey etc.

But in the end, it all is enjoyed by the listener, regardless of how.

And, I didn't say Eminem purposely made the song bad.

Wait, so he didn't try to make the song bad? But it was? So how is that any different? It's not.

I said he purposely made a ridiculous song. I still think he wanted it to be catchy, but he clearly wasn't being as witty as he could by calling his critics meanies. He was being childish, and tongue in cheek. Because he was a man in his early 30s, so it's supposed be funny, given his age and the context.

But it wasn't witty, or catchy, or funny, so it was worse of a fail.

As for your last sentence I don't get what you mean...

Eminem trying to make a song bad on purpose is a bigger fail than trying to make a good song but failing.

[dead prez]

You're contradicting yourself, we're not criticizing the song because of it's concept (which we think is retarded btw), we're criticizing it for being executed horribly. You're hiding behind the whole he wanted to make a ridiculous song, and using that to defend it. Than when we do critcize it for being a ridiculous song, you're saying he was trying to make a shitty song.

It's a whole semantical game that we're getting caugh up on really.

We don't mind Eminem being stupid and over the top, as long as he does it with tact (As the World turns), but he just does it horribly here.

[EminemBase]

Wait, so he didn't try to make the song bad? But it was? So how is that any different? It's not.

No he tried to make it ridiculous. And it is. But it's ironic, he's using the language of a child and he's in his early 30s. Now, if you don't find that funny then it's bad to you.

But you still find the song absurd yes? So how did it fail. It achieved its aim.

A lot different to a song trying to be X and being something else.

But it wasn't witty, or catchy, or funny, so it was worse of a fail.

It wasn't supposed to be witty. Clearly. It was ironic / tongue in cheek.

You really think he was trying to be witty by saying "you're just a big weenie"? he's being purposely childish and absurd.

And, I do think it's catchy. As for whether you find it funny, matter of preference. But it still comes across the way he intended it to.

Eminem trying to make a song bad on purpose is a bigger fail than trying to make a good song but failing.

I don't think he tried to make it bad. I think he tried to make a tongue in cheek, absurd song, which he did. So he didn't fail in that aspect did he.

And, okay... let's say a comedian - Gervais is a good one, purposely says a shit joke but the humour is in the attitude - the humour is in the fact you know Gervais knows better and you know that's not his best attempt at being funny...

Is that the same as a shit comedian saying a shit joke but genuinely thinking it's gold?

[EminemBase]

You're contradicting yourself, we're not criticizing the song because of it's concept (which we think is retarded btw), we're criticizing it for being executed horribly. You're hiding behind the whole he wanted to make a ridiculous song, and using that to defend it. Than when we do critcize it for being a ridiculous song, you're saying he was trying to make a shitty song.

It's a whole semantical game that we're getting caugh up on really.

We don't mind Eminem being stupid and over the top, as long as he does it with tact (As the World turns), but he just does it horribly here.

No I'm not contradicting myself. I'm repeating myself. Again and again.

Firstly, I'm hiding behind and hide behind nothing. I wouldn't be debating you if I had to 'hide' behind something. AGAIN - At no point have I argued the end result with you. Whether you think the end result is a shit song or not is preference. That's not what I am debating.

As I've said time and time again and will keep saying, the intent puts it in a different category. A song that intends to be something and is, is not the same as a song which intends to be X and isn't. That's different. Regardless of what you think of the end result.

Forget the fact it's Eminem and forget the song in question, I don't even care about those specifics, they're unimportant and you keep focusing on the fact it's Eminem now, thinking I'm going out of my way to defend him - I am not. I am going out of my way to defend logic.

The intent of an idea entirely changes how it should be judged.

But clearly you do not think so and clearly neither of us will be shifted. And anything from this point is repetition. Well it's been repetition for quite a while now. So if all you're going to do is respond to me with the same points, re-phrased, let's just agree we think differently and call it quits.

[dead prez]

But clearly you do not think so and clearly neither of us will be shifted. And anything from this point is repetition. Well it's been repetition for quite a while now. So if all you're going to do is respond to me with the same points, re-phrased, let's just agree we think differently and call it quits.

Fine, I guess I 'll leave civilly and rather not look like I'm making strawmans and being disingenous on purpose.

[ChristinaE12]

Not to interrupt your argument or anything but.. You all kinda seem to be arguing different points. Neither one of you are gonna 'win' the debate.

But as far as intent thing goes. I think it does matter a bit. My biggest example would be say, Rebecca Blacks Friday song. If that was supposed to be comedey, stupid funny, dumb, a mockery of todays pop, etc.. It would have succeeded and done it's purpose.. But since it's supposed to be a real song, not funny, she actually tried for a good hit. It fails horribly and fuckin sucks beyond what words cannot describe. And the only reason it turned into a hit is simply because how bad it is.

So yeah.. I think intent does matter to a point. But you all are beyond that now.

[classthe_king]

Wait, so he didn't try to make the song bad? But it was? So how is that any different? It's not.

No he tried to make it ridiculous. And it is. But it's ironic, he's using the language of a child and he's in his early 30s. Now, if you don't find that funny then it's bad to you.

But you still find the song absurd yes? So how did it fail. It achieved its aim.

It failed because IT'S FUCKING HORRIBLE. Yes, it succeeded in its aim of being stupid as fuck, no it did not succeed it in it's aim of being a good song, it failed miserably. And if you're trying to say that Eminem wasn't trying to make a good song then you're wrong, NO ONE doens't make a song with the intent of it being a good song.

Big Weenie=Fail, Your argument=Fail, You=Stan.

Get over it.

[EminemBase]

Wait, so he didn't try to make the song bad? But it was? So how is that any different? It's not.

No he tried to make it ridiculous. And it is. But it's ironic, he's using the language of a child and he's in his early 30s. Now, if you don't find that funny then it's bad to you.

But you still find the song absurd yes? So how did it fail. It achieved its aim.

It failed because IT'S FUCKING HORRIBLE. Yes, it succeeded in its aim of being stupid as fuck, no it did not succeed it in it's aim of being a good song, it failed miserably. And if you're trying to say that Eminem wasn't trying to make a good song then you're wrong, NO ONE doens't make a song with the intent of it being a good song.

Big Weenie=Fail, Your argument=Fail, You=Stan.

Get over it.

Wasn't ever saying "Big Weenie" was a good song. Was saying it's an entirely different type of song to be judged, given the nature of the song.

You = still failed to understand that.

Your argument = defeated multiple times. Like the 'runner analogy' lmao.

Falling back on 'Stan' shit again? automatic loss. Desperation. Fool.

[classthe_king]

No, I do understand what you're saying, but it's wrong. Nas' song is not worse because it was serious and Eminem's was silly because Eminem's song was worse. End of discussion.

[EminemBase]

No, I do understand what you're saying, but it's wrong. Nas' song is not worse because it was serious and Eminem's was silly because Eminem's song was worse. End of discussion.

No you've just demonstrated again that you don't understand what I'm saying.

I've been saying it's a different kind of failure. They're not the same. Bad is not just bad. Intent changes on what level(s) the song fails or succeeds.

You're a simpleton. End of discussion.

[classthe_king]

And you're failing to understand that I do understand what you are saying and are telling you that you are wrong.