"Hip Hop Is A Lesser Form Of Music"

[Master Chief]

Break Benjamin can kiss my ass.

Anyways first off who said that there's some overarching cosmic law saying that you need X amount of syllables to be lyrical? As a matter of fact putting that at the forefront of lyricism for other genres that aren't Hip Hop is fucking stupid and one sided, what about songs that don't intend to rhyme in the first place? That pretty much throws your rule out the window, and I'll just like to say that complexity=/= better lyricism, or are you one of those type of people that mirror idiotic Prog rock fans that think playing more notes equals better music?

No, sir. BB > Bullet For My Valentine.

I never said syllables = lyrical. What fallacy is that diction? I said, that a Rock song can have everything a Hip Hop song can have EXCEPT for syllables. Songs that don't intend to rhyme are songs that literally could be written in 2 minutes, and only illustrates and further proves why Hip Hop is more complex and difficult to WRITE. A Hip Hop with no rhyming = not a Hip Hop song. I think, pretty much the fact that a Hip Hop song can have just as good lyricism as a Rock song but a Rock song cannot have the complexity in rhymes that a Hip Hop song can have because it's simply non-existant is a done deal here.

Btw, I'm not one of those people that hold rhyming above everything and I don't consider the sole reason as to why Hip Hop is the best genre of music. I also believe Hip Hop has more interesting and advanced flows.

[dead prez]

No, sir. BB > Bullet For My Valentine.

lol

I never said syllables = lyrical. What fallacy is that diction? I said, that a Rock song can have everything a Hip Hop song can have EXCEPT for syllables.

Strawman, and I don't commit that by any means in my post so...

You're trying to devalue Rock music's lyrics because they don't put emphasis on syllables, is about as stupid as me shitting on rap music for it's lack of melody.

Songs that don't intend to rhyme are songs that literally could be written in 2 minutes,

What the fuck is this shit are you this ignorant?

and only illustrates and further proves why Hip Hop is more complex and difficult to WRITE.

In trying to match syllables yeah and there's more overall lyrics in rap songs, but complexity and quantity=/= better lyricism, sorry.

A Hip Hop with no rhyming = not a Hip Hop song.

Oh gee I wonder why, maybe because rhyming is ESSENTIAL in Hip Hop and isn't as essential in other genres.

I think, pretty much the fact that a Hip Hop song can have just as good lyricism as a Rock song but a Rock song cannot have the complexity in rhymes that a Hip Hop song can have because it's simply non-existant is a done deal here.

Very few rappers have matched the lyricism of Bob Dylan, Daniel Gildenlow or Peter Gabriel.

Btw, I'm not one of those people that hold rhyming above everything and I don't consider the sole reason as to why Hip Hop is the best genre of music. I also believe Hip Hop has more interesting and advanced flows.

Cool, but you're giving specific reasons that really only apply to Hip Hop, it's like me faulting Hip Hop for it's lack of Melody or the constant sampling prevalent in the genre and saying it sucks because of that.

[Chet Starr]

^^^ you explained that beautifully

[Master Chief]

Strawman, and I don't commit that by any means in my post so...

You're trying to devalue Rock music's lyrics because they don't put emphasis on syllables, is about as stupid as me shitting on rap music for it's lack of melody.

But, I've ONLY been talking about lyrics this whole time. Bringing up melody is irrelevant. I'm stating WHY Hip Hop's writing process is more difficult and complex explaning why I bring up syllables.

What the fuck is this shit are you this ignorant?

5 minutes. Happy?

In trying to match syllables yeah and there's more overall lyrics in rap songs, but complexity and quantity=/= better lyricism, sorry.

Hip Hop can have better lyricism than other genres while other genres can't have more syllables than Hip Hop, sorry.

Oh gee I wonder why, maybe because rhyming is ESSENTIAL in Hip Hop and isn't as essential in other genres.

Indeed.

Very few rappers have matched the lyricism of Bob Dylan, Daniel Gildenlow or Peter Gabriel.

Hmm... I don't know about that but I DO know that absolutely no artist of other genres has matched the complexity and rhyming of rappers like Eminem, Elzhi, Royce and about 93% of rappers. See the difference between your post and my post?

Cool, but you're giving specific reasons that really only apply to Hip Hop, it's like me faulting Hip Hop for it's lack of Melody or the constant sampling prevalent in the genre and saying it sucks because of that.

Like I said before, I have only been discussing lyrics. I brought up flow just so it doesn't seem like rhyming is all that matters to me.

[dead prez]

But, I've ONLY been talking about lyrics this whole time. Bringing up melody is irrelevant. I'm stating WHY Hip Hop's writing process is more difficult and complex explaning why I bring up syllables.

Obviously, reason I threw that analogy in was because having a complex rhyme scheme is pretty muche essential in rap nowadays, whereas rhyming isn't even essential in other genres. But for you to try and give rap brownie points because of that is onesided, like I said there's no overarching cosmic law saying you need X amount of syllables to be lyrical.

5 minutes. Happy?

Shut up, if you want me to post lyrics that match some of rap's best I'll do it.

Hip Hop can have better lyricism than other genres while other genres can't have more syllables than Hip Hop, sorry.

I'm not denying this at all, I'm saying that syllables count is pretty much a non factor for other genres, so to try and use that as the crux of your argument as to why rap>all other genres in lyricism is stupid.

Hmm... I don't know about that but I DO know that absolutely no artist of other genres has matched the complexity and rhyming of rappers like Eminem, Elzhi, Royce and about 93% of rappers. See the difference between your post and my post?

Yeah you opted for the, objective post, but if you don't believe me I could start posting lyrics. Rock music doesn't have the same goals a hot 16 rap verse in trying to fit in all the punchlines, syllables, etc. The musisicians of the respective genres have very different goals when writing lyrics.

Like I said before, I have only been discussing lyrics. I brought up flow just so it doesn't seem like rhyming is all that matters to me.

And I only brought up that melody analogy, because rap is probably the only genre where if you don't start rhyming at least a few syllables in your verse nowadays your writing is considered subpar, that isn't the case for other genres however.

My response felt very repetitive btw.

[mceddie]

First off, any one who claims a rap song is harder to make than a rock song is just as ignorant as the people who claim rap isn't music.

If anything, and don't get me wrong I love rap, rock is way more complex and takes way more time to make.

Rap artists have all their instrumentals prepared by a producer who does mostly everything on a keyboard, ready for their album. All they need to do is write the lyrics and lay down the vocals. Writing the lyrics and laying down the vocals is like 1/4 of what a rock band needs to do. Rock bands write and record their songs from the ground up, the isntrumentals are their own creation. Take it from some one who was in a band and was in a studio recording an album, each member of the band spends 5 days a week 8 hours at a time in the studio for 6 months to a year making an album. Eminem's recovery, a great album with good production, was flushed out in 3 months.

[dead prez]

First off, any one who claims a rap song is harder to make than a rock song is just as ignorant as the people who claim rap isn't music.

No one's claiming that at all, all they're saying is that rap lyrics are more complex and I agree to a degree in that they actually have to worry about syllable placement and for the most part, rappers have to write MORE lyrics, but actual song making is debatable.

If anything, and don't get me wrong I love rap, rock is way more complex and takes way more time to make.

Don't start this.

Rap artists have all their instrumentals prepared by a producer who does mostly everything on a keyboard, ready for their album. All they need to do is write the lyrics and lay down the vocals.

And what do you categorize rappers that do both? Not to mention there are tons of rockers who don't even write their own lyrics.

Writing the lyrics and laying down the vocals is like 1/4 of what a rock band needs to do. Rock bands write and record their songs from the ground up, the isntrumentals are their own creation.

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Take it from some one who was in a band and was in a studio recording an album, each member of the band spends 5 days a week 8 hours at a time in the studio for 6 months to a year making an album. Eminem's recovery, a great album with good production, was flushed out in 3 months.

This is largely hurt from the "Take it from someone who experienced it" bs, no offense but you aren't exactly the go mgo guy if we need opinions on what is and isn't harder to make.

[Master Chief]

Obviously, reason I threw that analogy in was because having a complex rhyme scheme is pretty muche essential in rap nowadays, whereas rhyming isn't even essential in other genres. But for you to try and give rap brownie points because of that is onesided, like I said there's no overarching cosmic law saying you need X amount of syllables to be lyrical.

It doesn't make a difference if it's essential. It's essential because Hip Hop is a genre that is more demanding in the lyric department so of course it's gonna be more complex. Just because it's essential in Hip Hop and not in Rock doesn't mean my argument isn't valid. I don't care about the melody thing. Cool, they're more melodic but too bad that I don't care and I'm not discussing that.

Shut up, if you want me to post lyrics that match some of rap's best I'll do it.

Roflcopter/

I'm not denying this at all, I'm saying that syllables count is pretty much a non factor for other genres, so to try and use that as the crux of your argument as to why rap>all other genres in lyricism is stupid.

I'm bringing that up because I'm arguing lyrics/writing so of course I'm gonna bring up the most obvious difference between Hip Hop and every other genre

Yeah you opted for the, objective post, but if you don't believe me I could start posting lyrics. Rock music doesn't have the same goals a hot 16 rap verse in trying to fit in all the punchlines, syllables, etc. The musisicians of the respective genres have very different goals when writing lyrics.

Hip Hop has more versatile/more variety of writers, remember that. There are Hip Hop artists that when writing have the same goals as some musicians of other genres when writing lyrics on some songs. On top of that, they have complex rhyme schemes (most of them).

And I only brought up that melody analogy, because rap is probably the only genre where if you don't start rhyming at least a few syllables in your verse nowadays your writing is considered subpar, that isn't the case for other genres however.

My response felt very repetitive btw.

Refer to first post.

[EminemBase]

Well, it is in the sense that a lot of hip-hop, at least to begin with sampled from other genres to create its music. So surely borrowing, and meshing is a lesser form of creativity than stark instrumentation and actual composure. Most hip-hop producers are not composers. Or musicians (in the true sense).

So that's where the perception comes from.

However, Hip Hop is typically a lyrical art-form. The focus has always been on the lyrics and communication. And language. And rappers are better defined as lyricists rather than musicians. As most of them have no hand in creating music. They may in the sense that, they do take part in the process by way of, even their vocals and rhymes account for the final musical product / the song. But, this is really just semantics as of course, most don't even produce (arrange) the backdrop (beat) to the their rhymes let alone play instruments or create the music itself.

But, you get different things from different genres so it doesn't make all that much sense to say it's a 'lesser' form like it's pretending to be something it's not. Just like you wouldn't necessarily turn to pop music for deep or thought-provoking, or political lyrics - you wouldn't necessarily turn to hip-hop for huge musical formations and strings. Or long guitar solos. Not because it can't do those things but because, that's not what it does by definition. That's why it's what it is, and not rock or X.

It all depends what you're trying to get from whatever particular genre or form of music that you're listening to. As, compared to say classical music, ALL genres are 'lesser' forms of music. The very best rock bands in the world for example: their very best musical accomplishments and sound structures are laughable in comparison to historical classical arrangements.

Again though, it's not a competition. It's almost like watching a comedy and saying it's a lesser form of movie than say a war movie. Now, you could argue that it's 'lesser' because there's less film elements, less serious directing, less sophisticated lighting and film sequences and so on... but a comedy isn't trying to achieve those things. So, it's only 'lesser' by matter of fact, it's not lesser as in, it's trying to achieve those elements and failing therefore it's inferior.

Which is the most important distinction to make.

So yes, generally speaking hip-hop IS a lesser form of music in the sense that, there's usually less actual music involved and less sophisticated music or less organic and structured music being made. As we all know, a lot of rap is based on drum loops which often serve simply as backdrops to highlight the rhymes and provide the rapper with a rhythm to spit to.

But again, it's matter of fact that it's lesser, not a failure on hip-hop's part. And then of course we have exceptions such as Kanye who go out of their way to make very eccentric, genre-mashing hip-hop that incorporates epic musical elements. That's besides the point though.

Point is, it's not like hip-hop is trying to 'live up' to rock or X genre's standards and failing all the time. Which is the implication when anybody says it's "a lesser form of music". It's that it's a different genre with different aims and artistic goals therefore it goes about what it does differently and the huge huge, major difference is that its main focus is lyrics, language and themes. And, a rapper is often a... writer and arranger of those things, rather than music.

Saying hip-hop is a lesser form of music is maybe the equivalent to saying teen pop is a lesser form of lyricism. Again, clearly, it is. But, teen pop isn't trying to be lyrical either.

(PS. I know the word music can mean vocal or instrumentation, but I'm using it to mean, just instrumentation - in this context. To avoid confusion. Silly semantics.)

[Chet Starr]

Art is still art even if you replace the paintbrush with your ass hair, it just won't smell so well

[dead prez]

It doesn't make a difference if it's essential. It's essential because Hip Hop is a genre that is more demanding in the lyric department so of course it's gonna be more complex. Just because it's essential in Hip Hop and not in Rock doesn't mean my argument isn't valid. I don't care about the melody thing. Cool, they're more melodic but too bad that I don't care and I'm not discussing that.

Oh it completely makes a difference like I said earlier rhyming and having a complex rhyme scheme is essential in rap, if you don't you're considered a joke nowadays.

Rhyming in other genres isn't even essential, let alone having a scheme similar to Lose Yourself.

You're trying to take parts that are exclusive to X than apply it to Y, sorry doesn't work.

Just because rap is a genre that focuses more on lyricism doesn't mean that rappers innately better lyricists than rockers or other musicians for that matter.

Let me ask you this does a verse (let's drop the whole musical argument), that doesn't rhyme any less poetical than a verse that does?

I see you're missing the poing of my analogy, I brought that up because like I said meldoy isn't something one would look for when listening to rap music, just like having a rhyme scheme isn't something one would look for when listening to rock music.

Roflcopter

What's more funny is that you think Royce Da 5'9 is a good lyricist.

I'm bringing that up because I'm arguing lyrics/writing so of course I'm gonna bring up the most obvious difference between Hip Hop and every other genre

Yes, and they don't set out to do that in the first place, that's not their goal to have a complex rhyme scheme.

Hip Hop has more versatile/more variety of writers, remember that.

No, the only thing they have that other genres don't have in terms of writers are those that an drop hot 16s laced with punchlines and multies but have zero depth, and quite frankly, who cares about those.

There are Hip Hop artists that when writing have the same goals as some musicians of other genres when writing lyrics on some songs. On top of that, they have complex rhyme schemes (most of them).

This I agree with though you'll find very few that can actually have extremely compelx rhyme schemes and not be lead by theme, while still having something substantial to say.

Refer to first post.

I did and I countered it.

[classthe_king]

Hip-Hop is more focused on lyrics. Other genres are more focused on the actual music. They are both hard to make and any person on either side trying to argue otherwise is wrong.

/thread.

[dead prez]

Hip-Hop is more focused on lyrics. Other genres are more focused on the actual music. They are both hard to make and any person on either side trying to argue otherwise is wrong.

/thread.

[Master Chief]

Ok, diction.

I'm pretty sure we have come to a conclusion here. Hip Hop has more complex rhyme/rhyme schemes while other genres don't because that's not their main focus. I say it's more complex based on that fact alone, you say that not neccesarily because other genres focus and excel on other parts of lyricism. I honestly don't know where to go from here.

But, I will respond to this:

No, the only thing they have that other genres don't have in terms of writers are those that an drop hot 16s laced with punchlines and multies but have zero depth, and quite frankly, who cares about those.

There are writers that write battles and disses which other genres don't have. That's another one. Oh and concepts like Rewind, Alphabetic Slaughter, Stan/Kim, & Dumb It Down have never been executed in other genres. Don't forget Gangsta & Mafioso rap.

P.S. Royce is a great lyricist, hoe.

[Block]

Hip Hop isn't a lesser form of music, but there are other genres that compete with it or even excel past it as far as musicality and phonetics are concerned.

Imo, artists like Rob Thomas and Adam Lazzara write and perform lyrics that can compete with any hip hop artist. Also, their songs often times seem to be structured much better than the average 16 / 8 / 16, etc.