Songs You Can't Fuckin Stand?

[dead prez]

Well yeah they're the shitty ones that get radio play, but there's tons of dope Southern Hip Hop not affiliated with Crunk, Bad Boy, Cash money, the South's just being scapegoated as the one killing Hip Hop. Much like 50 cent is pinpointed as the one killing Gangsta rap , which is true btw.

[WinstonMARX]

Well yeah they're the shitty ones that get radio play, but there's tons of dope Southern Hip Hop not affiliated with Crunk, Bad Boy, Cash money, the South's just being scapegoated as the one killing Hip Hop. Much like 50 cent is pinpointed as the one killing Gangsta rap , which is true btw.

50 Cent should be given A FUCKING AWARD for killing gangster rap.

[dead prez]

I meant No Limit in my original post btw, not Bad Boy, as the latter would be Puffy.

[dead prez]

50 Cent should be given A FUCKING AWARD for killing gangster rap.

At first I was going to agree with your post, in that 50 Cent was the one that did help kill Gangsta Rap, but I realize your praising him for killing the genre, which is fucking stupid. I personally miss Gangsta/Hardcore rap, (yeah i know the two are not interchangeable).

[stillmatic]

Well yeah they're the shitty ones that get radio play, but there's tons of dope Southern Hip Hop not affiliated with Crunk, Bad Boy, Cash money, the South's just being scapegoated as the one killing Hip Hop. Much like 50 cent is pinpointed as the one killing Gangsta rap , which is true btw.

No, again, you speak as if there's only a few shitty ones, and again, the vast majority of them, that is more than 90% of them are complete shit. Scapegoated rightfully, as their artists have also shifted the entire game and directly caused other artists from outside of the South to try and conform to try and get by, and thus have completely ruined the game.

50 Cent killed gangsta rap? First I've heard of that. He revitalized it if anything. You listen to pioneers of the sub-genre in Ice T and Ice Cube and they both say the exact same thing - 50 Cent is the last gangsta rapper alive.

[dead prez]

Sorry to turn this into a breakdown.

No, again, you speak as if there's only a few shitty ones, and again, the vast majority of them, that is more than 90% of them are complete shit.

No, that would be the ones who receive radio play, and yeah, I won't deny that they're helping in killing Hip Hop and giving it a negative image, but what's played on the radio is the minority not the majority.

Scapegoated rightfully, as their artists have also shifted the entire game and directly caused other artists from outside of the South to try and conform to try and get by, and thus have completely ruined the game.

What's going on right now is nothing more than the dark ages for the South, er well the past few years, don't really follow up on the radio, which is akin to The Jiggy Era that ran rampant in NY during the late 90s. Started by Puff and propelled complete jokes to the forefront of the genre, while crippling careers (namely Nas and Az, since both of them jumped on the Jiggy bandwagon, hell even OC jumped on the Jiggy bandwagon but was able to produce a good album from it). What you're doing is generalizing the South, it'd be like basing NY Hip Hop during the late 90s off of Puffy/Mase/etc., while overlooking underground guys like Blackstar.

Sorry if the above point felt like a red herring, and yes I'm not going to deny that guys like Fat Joe (who's a scumbag though and turned his back on DITC and Pun) have jumped on The Southern Bandwagon, and have deterred the attention from NY hip hop.

50 Cent killed gangsta rap? First I've heard of that. He revitalized it if anything. You listen to pioneers of the sub-genre in Ice T and Ice Cube and they both say the exact same thing - 50 Cent is the last gangsta rapper alive.

Yes, he revitalized it, but unlike guys like Pac/NWA/Biggie, he had nothing profound or substantial to say and bastardized the subgenre beyond belief, making it look like nothing but a distorted warped version of what it was and can be. And I won't deny that he's probably my favorite rapper's favorite rapper.

[stillmatic]

Just had to break it down, now i gotta quote to shit to know which points I'm arguing against.

No, that would be the ones who receive radio play, and yeah, I won't deny that they're helping in killing Hip Hop and giving it a negative image, but what's played on the radio is the minority not the majority.

I hope you're not bringing the underground in this discussion, because that's another topic. 90% of Southern rappers make generic trashy radio songs, if that's what you wanted me to say, I just did.

What's going on right now is nothing more than the dark ages for the South, er well the past few years, don't really follow up on the radio, which is akin to The Jiggy Era that ran rampant in NY during the late 90s. Started by Puff and propelled complete jokes to the forefront of the genre, while crippling careers (namely Nas and Az, since both of them jumped on the Jiggy bandwagon, hell even OC jumped on the Jiggy bandwagon but was able to produce a good album from it). What you're doing is generalizing the South, it'd be like basing NY Hip Hop during the late 90s off of Puffy/Mase/etc., while overlooking underground guys like Blackstar.

First of all, again you're bringing the underground into this, and that's not relevant to the discussion.

Secondly, what are you talking about? Clearly during the Puff era, the likes of Nas, AZ, the Wu etc. were still big players in hip hop, they received a lot of attention and acclaim. Illmatic is known to have been the record to save hot97 according to Ed Lover. Puff and Mase was one movement from one brand, and quite clearly they were known for a lot of their antics other than the music - the flash, the style, the fashion, the glitz, the glamor and the show - that's what defined the Bad Boy era (after Biggie), not the music. How many other artists could imitated that? Not many, if any because that couldn't be duplicated. That's the big difference. That style was unique to Puff and everyone else did their own thing, whereas the South, it's all the same shit. You take one artist out and put another one on the track, and it's the same thing.

Yes, he revitalized it, but unlike guys like Pac/NWA/Biggie, he had nothing profound or substantial to say and bastardized the subgenre beyond belief, making it look like nothing but a distorted warped version of what it was and can be. And I won't deny that he's probably my favorite rapper's favorite rapper.

No he did not bastardize the genre at all, again that was the South. 50 was himself and his music spoke to that, and what happened thereafter was a bunch of non original Southern rappers portraying the gangsta rap lifestyle to try and give the public what they thought wanted at the time. HHD said this a while a go, and it's spot on, people are used to hearing about 'gangsters' in hip hop and aren't critical enough to understand that it's not necessarily a gimmick. So when 50 Cent raps about such stuff, they don't understand the pain and passion in what he says. That's what Ice T and Cube know, that's why they know he's the last gangsta rapper alive.

[ChristinaE12]

Not to interrupt the argument or anything but...

I'd have to say most of Soulja Boy's recent shit.. And then Wacka's and Gucci's stuff. I really just hate the pointless fuckin yelling they all do. And I'm so glad they start there shit off right away with the yelling cause I know it's them and I can turn the shit off without wasting time.

[FreeSpeech]

Love The Way You Lie. On the rare occasion I listened to the radio in my car (iPod dead), I hated when it came on. Hard In Da Paint/No Hands/Look At Me Now type songs >>>> LTWYL. Not in terms of technical skill, but as in I don't feel like pulling a Chris Breezy on Eminem when I hear them.

[stillmatic]

Dead Prez, I'll go with your argument and let people generalize the NY sound when Puffy was running shit (one artist).

Lets compare, what's better. Examples come from the tracks that dominated the radio and were #1 records.

All about the Benjamins
vs
Crank that

Can't nobody hold me down
vs
Lollipop

I'll be missing you
vs
Get low

Been around the world
vs
The whisper song

[dead prez]

I hope you're not bringing the underground in this discussion, because that's another topic. 90% of Southern rappers make generic trashy radio songs, if that's what you wanted me to say, I just did.

So wait we're discussing strictly the radio? Than yeah of course, The South has complete garbage pumping out, but what'd you want me to say? Like I said the radio isn't exactly an accurate portrayal of Southern Hip Hop, and higlights the garbage that it produces.

K.R.I.T. however is an exception, and is rising, same for J Cole, though you can say he has an NY feel to him, and Jay Electronica (though I believe he's underground).

First of all, again you're bringing the underground into this, and that's not relevant to the discussion.

So, if we're discussing strictly what's played on the radio, than yeah of course The South has produced utter steaming piles of poop, no one's going to deny this.

Secondly, what are you talking about? Clearly during the Puff era, the likes of Nas, AZ, the Wu etc. were still big players in hip hop, they received a lot of attention and acclaim.

Dear God no, Az's career was pretty much non existant during the time, same for Nas after IWW, but he came back with Stillmatic of course, he tried following Puffy's footsteps and appealing to the masses so he'd get more radio play, and failed epically.

Same for Az.

The Wu other than Wu Forever, had terrible sophomore slump albums, aside from Ghostface who pretty much carried The Wu on his back post 00s.

Though I believe we're going to have varying opinions on the quality of the albums, namely I Am, Nastradamus, and just about any Wu Sequel.

Puff and Mase was one movement from one brand, and quite clearly they were known for a lot of their antics other than the music - the flash, the style, the fashion, the glitz, the glamor and the show - that's what defined the Bad Boy era (after Biggie), not the music.

I know and quite frankly, NY was in a much worse position the following than it is now, also BCC/DITC/Mobb Deep/Nas all turned away from the hardcore Noir music they made during the mid 90s to Jiggy music, that's how much influence Puffy had. Hell even LAD was littered with Jiggy tracks.

How many other artists could imitated that? Not many, if any because that couldn't be duplicated. That's the big difference.

-Jay z/OC

That style was unique to Puff and everyone else did their own thing, whereas the South, it's all the same shit. You take one artist out and put another one on the track, and it's the same thing.

I agree with this mostly about the music being replicated, but NY isn't exactly innocous in this whole downward spiral that mainstream Hip Hop has been in the past few years, or did you forget that horrendous "This is Why I'm Hot anthem"?

No he did not bastardize the genre at all, again that was the South.

The South didn't partake in Gangsta Rap's downfall, or are you referencing Lil Wayne with his fake blood affiliations?

50 was himself and his music spoke to that, and what happened thereafter was a bunch of non original Southern rappers portraying the gangsta rap lifestyle to try and give the public what they thought wanted at the time. HHD said this a while a go, and it's spot on, people are used to hearing about 'gangsters' in hip hop and aren't critical enough to understand that it's not necessarily a gimmick. So when 50 Cent raps about such stuff, they don't understand the pain and passion in what he says. That's what Ice T and Cube know, that's why they know he's the last gangsta rapper alive.

Trust me, I'm not one that bashes Gangsta Rap, if that's what you're implying, I'll defend it from blind criticism, but just because 50 is "real"" doesn't mean he makes good music. I hate to trash 50 cent, as it's rather monotonous and I've done it a million times before, but GRODT was a pile of poop other than the beats.

And unlike Biggie/Pac/NWA there was no other shades to 50, he was hollow and wallowed in materialism only, not to mention had very subpar rapping skills. I guess he had melody and has a good feel for hooks.

[dead prez]

Dead Prez, I'll go with your argument and let people generalize the NY sound when Puffy was running shit (one artist).

Lets compare, what's better. Examples come from the tracks that dominated the radio and were #1 records.

All about the Benjamins
vs
Crank that

All about the Benjamins, only cause it has Big.

Can't nobody hold me down
vs
Lollipop

I prefer Lollipop actually.

I'll be missing you
vs
Get low

I'll be missing you was horrendous, though Get low isn't much better.

Been around the world
vs
The whisper song

Really your missing the point of me bringing up P diddy, they're both utter shit, it's like saying Cat shit>Dog shit.

[FreeSpeech]

Ya'll hate Diddy too much. I'm no big fan, but Bad Boy has some great songs. Diddy is FAr better than Soulja-caliber rappers. At least his production is smooth and can't be made by a 15 year old with FL Studio.

One of my favorite songs, real nostalgic:

[stillmatic]

[
So wait we're discussing strictly the radio? Than yeah of course, The South has complete garbage pumping out, but what'd you want me to say? Like I said the radio isn't exactly an accurate portrayal of Southern Hip Hop, and higlights the garbage that it produces.

We're referring the to sound that the masses hear, and that's not just the big radio stations, I'm talking the hip hop stations. Not just radio either.

Dear God no, Az's career was pretty much non existant during the time, same for Nas after IWW, but he came back with Stillmatic of course, he tried following Puffy's footsteps and appealing to the masses so he'd get more radio play, and failed epically.

AZ was a bad example, but The Firm got a lot of attention. I have two points here, firstly that the good artists still got a lot of attention and it wasn't just about the Puff's or Hov's dominating, artists like Nas, Mobb Deep, LOX, DMX got fuck loads of attention. Why do you think The Tunnel is such a big figure in the history of NY hip hop? Because of those artists. My second point here is, even if I agree with you that the likes of Nas tried to follow Puff's style in making music (which I don't agree with it anyway), he wasn't allowed to get away with it. That's the big difference. Nas was lambasted at the time for his mainstream music. Whereas all these Southern rappers, they try to copy one another and it's fair game and it's nothing. I don't listen to Wayne, but I've read you say plenty that he was great before Carter 3 and then he changed and went toward the more mainstream direction - guess what, he got away with it.

]Trust me, I'm not one that bashes Gangsta Rap, if that's what you're implying, I'll defend it from blind criticism, but just because 50 is "real"" doesn't mean he makes good music. I hate to trash 50 cent, as it's rather monotonous and I've done it a million times before, but GRODT was a pile of poop other than the beats.

Just because 50 is real doesn't mean he makes good music, I never said that. What I'm saying is that his version of gangsta rap was no gimmick, it was genuine. Whether it was good is a matter of preference, but my point here is that he had his own genuine style that applied perfectly to him. He represented gangsta rap well, especially during a time when he was practically a lone figure. Still is a lone figure.

[dead prez]

We're referring the to sound that the masses hear, and that's not just the big radio stations, I'm talking the hip hop stations. Not just radio either.

I hate to play one big false dichotomy, but you're either mainstream or not, there's no shades of gray. And all those responsible for giving The South a bad image are the ones that are given radio play.

But if you actually search, you'd see there's tons of great Southern Hip Hop, Cunninlynguists for example. But you're better off asking Killahbee as he's much more well versed in Southern Hip Hop than myself.

AZ was a bad example, but The Firm got a lot of attention.

Differing opinion I guess, but The Firm was terrible and was also helped plummet Nas and Az's career further to the grave.

I have two points here, firstly that the good artists still got a lot of attention and it wasn't just about the Puff's or Hov's dominating,

In My Lifetime Vol 1 was a good album despite being Jiggy esque.

artists like Nas,

He was a shadow of his former self during this time and struggled hard to remain relevant.

Mobb Deep,

Anyone who isn't a fan of Mobb Deep would realize that their relevance was over post HOE, maybe Murda Muzik, but they strayed from their usual habitat of making gritty noir music, and tried putting in club tracks.

LOX,

They're garbage.

DMX got fuck loads of attention.

He's the exception, not the rule.

But I was mostly thinking of 97, which was the worst year in rap ever, as P Diddy just started gaining power, and the deaths of two you know whos occured.

Honestly Pun was the last true blue veteran of NY who can rhyme his ass off, and still be somewhat commercial.

My second point here is, even if I agree with you that the likes of Nas tried to follow Puff's style in making music (which I don't agree with it anyway), he wasn't allowed to get away with it. That's the big difference. Nas was lambasted at the time for his mainstream music.

Because Nas is a good rapper and has a reputation to uphold.

Whereas all these Southern rappers, they try to copy one another and it's fair game and it's nothing. I don't listen to Wayne, but I've read you say plenty that he was great before Carter 3 and then he changed and went toward the more mainstream direction - guess what, he got away with it.

I never thought Wayne was great, decent at best and made a few enjoyable mixtapes, but nowhere near the same tier as Nas. Oh and tons of his former fans decry his newer music.

i.e. Freespeech

Just because 50 is real doesn't mean he makes good music, I never said that. What I'm saying is that his version of gangsta rap was no gimmick, it was genuine. Whether it was good is a matter of preference, but my point here is that he had his own genuine style that applied perfectly to him. He represented gangsta rap well, especially during a time when he was practically a lone figure. Still is a lone figure.

Well I was mostly bashing 50 cent because he turned Gangsta rap, as nothing but bargain bin pop rap with no substantial quality, he was just an subpar rapper in general, and didn't say anything profound in his music or have any different shades to him.

No his persona outside his music, where he disses other creatively doesn't count.