Death is Certain

[Master Chief]

neither Food and Liquor or DIC are classic. I guess they can be in your opinion

Doggystyle is nowhere near as good as F&L or DIC...

And yes you dumbass, both those albums are considered classics by the Hip Hop community. Maybe not by you but who gives a fuck about your opinion... as if it discredits these albums in any way... please leave.

[dead prez]

I respect your opinion and those that consider both those albums a classic, but what determines a classic? The majority of views, sorry but that's not good reasoning, general consensus is nothing more than a preponderance of subjective views. More people claiming something is good doesn't fall in line with it being a classic.

Or how about albums that are only heard by the extreme Hip Hop heads who delved into the genre, does it deny the album being a classic, because most people are ignorant of it's existance?

Btw, I'm not just doing this cause it's Royce, both F&L and illmatic albums which I hold in high esteem aren't exempt from this.

[Master Chief]

I respect your opinion and those that consider both those albums a classic, but what determines a classic? The majority of views, sorry but that's not good reasoning, general consensus is nothing more than a preponderance of subjective views. More people claiming something is good doesn't fall in line with it being a classic.

Or how about albums that are only heard by the extreme Hip Hop heads who delved into the genre, does it deny the album being a classic, because most people are ignorant of it's existance?

Btw, I'm not just doing this cause it's Royce, both F&L and illmatic albums which I hold in high esteem aren't exempt from this.

So what is a classic album? There's a difference from personal classic to classic. There has to be a way to give an album the stamp "classic". General consensus by the Hip Hop community is the way to go. Of course, it's not a good reason to say why X album is better than Y album but that's not what I'm saying.

I don't know how to answer that but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

[dead prez]

Honestly, I'm not sure mostly whoever can back their opinion about why they feel X album is good or bad best I guess, I never felt right going with what the majority says, not saying you do that, but I just hate that mentality of "X people consider this a good album so it is", almost as bad an argument as there's more people who voted for X album than Y album in that poll so it's generally considered better, leaves a shitty taste in my mouth.

There's tons of albums I don't feel are that great, even though they may be lauded by general consensus, normally I also have to take into account the experience of people who praise said albums, but since there's no sure fire way to gauge their experience, it all feels pretty pointless tbh.

i.e. Someone who only listened to 5 Hip Hop albums their life might consider X album which followed trends and didn't do anything groundbreaking or innovative to be good, compared to someone who listened to a lot more can easily pick out said flaws in albums that the former is ignorant of. I wouldn't even call it consensus, just majority, and like I said earlier going with that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Oh and classic album is basically a flawless album with few blemishes and little to no skippable tracks, this can be gauged empirically free of bias, by not focusing on the style but the execution, even if you don't like what they're rapping about you can't deny their talents. Wheras personal classic tends to be albums with blemishes, but can be overlooked generally because the good outweigh the bad.

An album that isn't heard by more than say a hundred people but is flawless would fall in line with being a classic, not a personal classic.

[EminemBase]

Death Is Certain is known as a Hip Hop classic. In the Hip Hop community, Death Is Certain is a classic. You may not think so but you can't strip it from its title.

If you find illmatic boring and average, that's your opinion and that's cool. If you say YOU don't find illmatic to be a classic, that's strange... but it's cool and it's acceptable. If you say illmatic is not a classic, you are wrong. Straight up incorrect because one person cannot decide that.

The above applies to Death Is Certain.

Please refrain from repeating your views on the album as a response to this because that has nothing to do with what I just typed.

No but that's simply not true. You are assuming that Death Is Certain is a hip-hop classic because you like it. That is NOT true.

It's not considered a classic by the majority of critics OR hip-hop fans. It had no substantial impact and aside from something being a good album, for it to be a classic, it needs to have a substantial impact. And no I don't mean sales, I mean in the community.

When Illmatic dropped, there was a serious buzz. It was something new, Nas pushed boundaries. The same can be said for The Marshall Mathers LP. The same CANNOT be said for Death Is Certain. It pushed no boundaries and caused no buzz.

It's just a generic, personal album about bland, generic shit. A classic is something that matters, something that is different and original in some way. Something striking.

So you may think it's a classic, in your head: you can define it as one. But most people did not receive that album as one, it was not groundbreaking or new on any level and it is not a classic hip-hop album.

It didn't cause ANY fucking substantial impact at all. It's as plain as can be. You can't just call an album that is good a classic. Even if it's good from top to bottom. A classic is something that stands out in the genre's history, an album that when people think back to that time period they remember. Nobody outside of Royce's fans will be remembering that album.

It's not a significant hip-hop album of our era. Not a classic.

When most hip-hop fans think of the top 10 hip-hop albums of the past decade even, that album is hardly ever mentioned. There's so many albums which stand out in the past decade, and that album is not one of them. I bet if you asked the majority of hip-hop fans to name their top TWENTY even it wouldn't be in it.

It's not a hugely memorable album or something that mattered. Something being good simply isn't good enough. There isn't anything on there which makes it original or striking.

[Master Chief]

No but that's simply not true. You are assuming that Death Is Certain is a hip-hop classic because you like it. That is NOT true.

Really? Are you fucking serious? It's a classic not because I like it but because it's considered exactly that in the Hip Hop community. I like Recovery but it's not a classic album.

It's not considered a classic by the majority of critics OR hip-hop fans. It had no substantial impact and aside from something being a good album, for it to be a classic, it needs to have a substantial impact. And no I don't mean sales, I mean in the community.

Impact doesn't matter much when deciding if an album is classic or not. It's a plus but it does not fucking matter. There are so many underground albums that are considered classics yet hhad 0 impact.

When Illmatic dropped, there was a serious buzz. It was something new, Nas pushed boundaries. The same can be said for The Marshall Mathers LP. The same CANNOT be said for Death Is Certain. It pushed no boundaries and caused no buzz.

Who the fuck cares? When Tha Carter III by Wayne came out there was some serious buzz. Goblin by Tyler The Creator pushes boundaries yet it's nowhere near being a classic album.

It's just a generic, personal album about bland, generic shit. A classic is something that matters, something that is different and original in some way. Something striking.

Yeah, personal shit is generic. Going Through Changes, Deja Vu and Rock Bottom are the most generic songs I've ever heard as well. I agree.

Yeah... ok. A classic doesn't have to be the most original, off the wall album ever. Sometimes simple is better. Anyway, there are very few albums, if any, that come close to the depressive and angry nature of DIC.

So you may think it's a classic, in your head: you can define it as one. But nobody else in the hip-hop community received that album as one, it was not groundbreaking or new on any level and it is not a classic hip-hop album. Not even close.

So you may think it's not a classic, in your head: you can NOT define it as one. But most of the hip hop community recieved the album as one, it doesn't fuck matter it wasn't groundbreaking or new and it is a classic Hip Hop album.

You're ignorant as HELL for saying that "nobody else in the Hip Hop community recieved that album as one". Get your head out of your ass.

It didn't cause ANY fucking substantial impact at all. It's as plain as can be. You can't just call an album that is good a classic. Even if it's good from top to bottom. A classic is something that stands out in the genre's history, an album that when people think back to that time period they remember. Nobody outside of Royce's fans will be remembering that album.

It's not a significant hip-hop album of our era. Not a classic.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY FUCKING IMPACT. GODDAMN. That's literally the only thing you can bring up to discredit DIC. Just because you think it's just "good" doesn't strip from its title as a classic. It's labeled a classic, go do some research. I don't give a single fuck if you think it's not a classic but when you try to say that in the Hip Hop community it's not a classic, then you're fucking wrong and you just need to check yourself.

"Inb415paragraphsandonly5arerelevant"

[Master Chief]

Honestly, I'm not sure mostly whoever can back their opinion about why they feel X album is good or bad best I guess, I never felt right going with what the majority says, not saying you do that, but I just hate that mentality of "X people consider this a good album so it is", almost as bad an argument as there's more people who voted for X album than Y album in that poll so it's generally considered better, leaves a shitty taste in my mouth.

There's tons of albums I don't feel are that great, even though they may be lauded by general consensus, normally I also have to take into account the experience of people who praise said albums, but since there's no sure fire way to gauge their experience, it all feels pretty pointless tbh.

i.e. Someone who only listened to 5 Hip Hop albums their life might consider X album which followed trends and didn't do anything groundbreaking or innovative to be good, compared to someone who listened to a lot more can easily pick out said flaws in albums that the former is ignorant of. I wouldn't even call it consensus, just majority, and like I said earlier going with that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Oh and classic album is basically a flawless album with few blemishes and little to no skippable tracks, this can be gauged empirically free of bias, by not focusing on the style but the execution, even if you don't like what they're rapping about you can't deny their talents. Wheras personal classic tends to be albums with blemishes, but can be overlooked generally because the good outweigh the bad.

An album that isn't heard by more than say a hundred people but is flawless would fall in line with being a classic, not a personal classic.

I kind of agree with this post, actually.

All I'm saying is that it's wrong to say an album is not a classic, overall and not just in your opinion. I feel like there is such a thing as indesputable classic even if you think the album is garbage. I'm not saying that because many people consider Ready To Die a Top 5 album that you should list it in your Top 100 list though. You can say it's horrible as long as you don't strip from its title.

[dead prez]

I kind of agree with this post, actually.

All I'm saying is that it's wrong to say an album is not a classic, overall and not just in your opinion. I feel like there is such a thing as indesputable classic even if you think the album is garbage. I'm not saying that because many people consider Ready To Die a Top 5 album that you should list it in your Top 100 list though. You can say it's horrible as long as you don't strip from its title.

Well, I'm glad we see eye to eye for once, and yeah there's tons of album that I don't think are that great, but are lauded by reviewers and the general community, and no matter how much I back up why I don't like that album, it's not going to remove the title from which it earned.

Personally I hate using the word classic though, as it's such an arbitrary word we assign to anything that we hold in high esteem, and arguing it is pretty much just arguing semantics.

Good luck with Embase's respons btw...

[classthe_king]

Death Is Certain is considered a classic in the Hip-Hop world? Wtf lololololololololol. You don't know shit about Hip-Hop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hip_hop_albums_considered_to_be_influential

Oops, it's not in that list

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/ChrisPC/the_500_greatest_hip_hop_albums__plus_the_other_ones_that_are_honorable_mention_

Not there either

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Hip-Albums-MUST-have/lm/1CAUN4WDUU10H

Shit, not in that list either

http://www.o-dub.com/classic/classic.html

Damn, not in their either...but it's a widely considered classic so we'll find it somewhere

http://rap.about.com/od/top10albums/ss/EssentialAlbums.htm

Not in that list

http://www.amazon.com/25-Classic-Hip-Hop-Albums/lm/COU5AVOQ7V2V

Nope...well I'm sure it will be in the next one

http://www.amazon.co.uk/All-time-classic-hip-albums/lm/1T55ICJBWBCWG

Well fuck, I give up

[Mahmoud48]

Lil wayne cartar 2 is considered a classic so fuck ur logic

[Master Chief]

Well, I'm glad we see eye to eye for once, and yeah there's tons of album that I don't think are that great, but are lauded by reviewers and the general community, and no matter how much I back up why I don't like that album, it's not going to remove the title from which it earned.

THANK YOU. Maybe, EmBase could learn a thing or two from you...

Personally I hate using the word classic though, as it's such an arbitrary word we assign to anything that we hold in high esteem, and arguing it is pretty much just arguing semantics.

Good luck with Embase's respons btw...

True. And I'm starting to get sick of the word myself...

Lol thanks. I'm not gonna write too much as I feel I have the ability to sum up my thoughts in a few sentences...

[Master Chief]

Death Is Certain is considered a classic in the Hip-Hop world? Wtf lololololololololol. You don't know shit about Hip-Hop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hip_hop_albums_considered_to_be_influential

Oops, it's not in that list

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/ChrisPC/the_500_greatest_hip_hop_albums__plus_the_other_ones_that_are_honorable_mention_

Not there either

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Hip-Albums-MUST-have/lm/1CAUN4WDUU10H

Shit, not in that list either

http://www.o-dub.com/classic/classic.html

Damn, not in their either...but it's a widely considered classic so we'll find it somewhere

http://rap.about.com/od/top10albums/ss/EssentialAlbums.htm

Not in that list

http://www.amazon.com/25-Classic-Hip-Hop-Albums/lm/COU5AVOQ7V2V

Nope...well I'm sure it will be in the next one

http://www.amazon.co.uk/All-time-classic-hip-albums/lm/1T55ICJBWBCWG

Well fuck, I give up

Hello, dumbass.

First of all, in that wikipedia list. In does not go all the way to 2004 so how are they supposed to list it? 1 loss for the menacing, Ohio emcee.

The others are listing mainstream albums. Those most known and recognized albums in Hip Hop Death Is Certain was an underground/understream album as it debuted in the high 100s in Billboard. In other words, not as popular as illmatic, Reasonable Doubt or MMLP. Just because it's not listed among the best of the best doesn't mean it's not hailed as a classic. You said SIH,KIH was the best album ever and was a classic, right? Yeah where the fuck is it in those lists, bitch? That's right, shut the fuck up.

[classthe_king]

Was I claiming that SIH,KIH was a widely recognized Hip-Hop classic? No. You were, and Death Is Certain does not come close to a Hip-Hop classic. Therefore, everything you've said is complete bullshit.

[EminemBase]

Impact doesn't matter much when deciding if an album is classic or not. It's a plus but it does not fucking matter. There are so many underground albums that are considered classics yet hhad 0 impact.

Of course impact fucking matters you retard.

Or, somebody on TR could make a great album in their bedroom, show twenty hip-hop fans, who all think it's brilliant and then what... it's a classic?

If an album is released on a professional level, as Death Is Certain was, with professional critics and publications hearing it and a relatively big (in comparison to a sole outfit) number of hip-hop fans hearing it: if it doesn't create a substantial impact amongst those people, it's not a classic. If you're not judging by the reaction, what are you judging by?

You can't just ignore the major reaction and say your personal reaction overrules everybody and therefore it IS a classic. You're deluded in thinking most received it as a classic.

And by substantial, I don't mean people go "yeah, pretty good" or even "great album". A classic makes people go "WOW, that is an amazing fucking album". And, from reading around, even general fans, even ones who LIKE it, it didn't make many people do that at all.

It's not a wow album on any level. It didn't do anything. A classic isn't just a good album.

Yeah, personal shit is generic. Going Through Changes, Deja Vu and Rock Bottom are the most generic songs I've ever heard as well. I agree.

My god you're such a retard lmfao.

Look at the way you think. I call Death Is Certain a generic album and call the material on it personal, bland and generic...

And you go from that to calling "Deja Vu" and "Rock Bottom" 'the most generic songs you've ever heard'... 'as well', sarcastically. Since when does calling one album which happens to house personal material on it generic translate into calling ALL personal material 'the most generic ever' by default.

You're such a fucking retard.

It's all about execution. It's not the fact the songs are personal, as most of 2Pac's material is personal. It's how it's executed, which is simply not noteworthy enough. There's a lot of babble in amongst what he's saying and a good flow and rhyming isn't enough to disguise his dull thoughts.

When you turn on 2Pac's classic personal tracks like "Dear Mama"... they do something to you. They're executed with such emotion and passion, and grace. Where as, Royce lamely rapping about guns, how tough he is and bla bla bla, in the same fucking way on every track does nothing.

To call those tracks classics, you must have low fucking standards.

Yeah... ok. A classic doesn't have to be the most original, off the wall album ever. Sometimes simple is better. Anyway, there are very few albums, if any, that come close to the depressive and angry nature of DIC.

No, not 'the most' - once again, you're hyper-defensive and like a stupid little baby jump to the most extreme defense imaginable.

When the FUCK did I say a classic had to be 'the most' original album ever. I wouldn't of said Illmatic is a classic if that's the case as the only thing truly remarkable about that is the execution. His actual ideas aren't strikingly original either. It's his lyricism and style.

Also, very few albums that come close to the depressive and angry nature of DIC? my god. You must have a FUCKING limited palette then I must say. And I do myself but even I can think of a ton right off the top. DIC isn't even effectively dark ffs.

It's lame as fuck. You're confusing laid back and empty with dark and depressive. He mixes genuine personal thoughts with predictable gangsta cheese, there's so much empty, lame lyricism on that album and the songs are not striking in any way. They barely define themselves from each other.

The Slim Shady LP is more dark and depressive than that album for a start. SSLP is dark, twisted and loony. Royce's is drab nothingness. It mixes so many elements, it's confused, it's nothing. It's just a laid back, generic, basic rap album. Nothing stands out about it.

What track on that album is as depressive as "If I Had" or "Rock Bottom" or EVEN FUCKING CLOSE to being as well written? I dare you.

You even mentioned an album in your own reply that is darker. Tyler's solo album is one million times darker and more depressive. It's pretty fucking aimless but his thoughts are so much more genuine and human, talking about slitting his wrist in detail and delving into his psyche. I'm not saying it's classic but if you think DIC sounds within ten yards as dark / depressive as Tyler's work you need your fucking head examined.

So you may think it's not a classic, in your head: you can NOT define it as one. But most of the hip hop community recieved the album as one, it doesn't fuck matter it wasn't groundbreaking or new and it is a classic Hip Hop album.

'Most of the hip-hop community' - where the fuck are you getting your info dick head?

That's interesting you think that as we had a big debate about this album in the Yelawolf vs. Royce thread and almost everybody that replied there said it wasn't a classic. And people have already replied here saying that it's not...

And if you were to look across the span of the Internet for personal hip-hop head's top 10, 20 lists or even 'classic album lists' of the past decade mainstream or underground, you'd be hard-pressed to find this album on the list let alone near top.

So once again: NOOOOO, this album WAASSS NOOOOOOOT received by the majority of hip-hop fans as a hip-hop classic. That is in your fucking head dip-shit.

You're ignorant as HELL for saying that "nobody else in the Hip Hop community recieved that album as one". Get your head out of your ass.

No no, YOU are ignorant as hell moron.

You clearly have made a blind assumption, get your head out of your ass you fucking brain-dead cocksucker. Death Is Certain was absolutely not received as a classic by most.

It's a barely remembered, solid album. Nothing more.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY FUCKING IMPACT. GODDAMN. That's literally the only thing you can bring up to discredit DIC. Just because you think it's just "good" doesn't strip from its title as a classic. It's labeled a classic, go do some research. I don't give a single fuck if you think it's not a classic but when you try to say that in the Hip Hop community it's not a classic, then you're fucking wrong and you just need to check yourself.

First of all, how the fuck is impact the only thing I can bring up? oh you mean besides every element of the material and the execution that I've also brought up...

Secondly:

Yes IMPACT DOES MATTER DICK HEAD.

Impact = effect the album has on fans who hear it. If it makes no impact, guess what?...

Fans who heard it = didn't rave about it.

Do the fucking math you cretin. I'm not talking huge sales or singles. Even underground classics, earn that status because everybody who hears it cannot help but yell from the fucking rooftops about what they've just heard to every other hip-hop fan.

Death Is Certain did not / does not come CLOSE to having that impact. You are absolutely fucking wrong, wrong, wroooooooong. Go learn, you fucking idiot.

[Master Chief]

Was I claiming that SIH,KIH was a widely recognized Hip-Hop classic? No. You were, and Death Is Certain does not come close to a Hip-Hop classic. Therefore, everything you've said is complete bullshit.

When did I say widely? It's considered a classic and that's it. I think it's one of the best albums ever but that's MY opinion. I know DIC won't be in the Top 10 or 20 lists because it didn't have a big enough impact and because it wasn't mainstream enough. I never said it was a heavyweight album, I just said that even if you think the album is garbage, its title remains the same.