Joe Budden vs. 2Pac

[classthe_king]

Well you didn't make him look like a dumbass, he made YOU look like a dumbass and I even agreed with you on the argument.

[Master Chief]

Well you didn't make him look like a dumbass, he made YOU look like a dumbass and I even agreed with you on the argument.

That makes no sense. He did not reply to any of the arguments I layed out yet he made me look like a dumbass? What because constantly insulted him? Ummm... no.

[classthe_king]

Well you didn't make him look like a dumbass, he made YOU look like a dumbass and I even agreed with you on the argument.

That makes no sense. He did not reply to any of the arguments I layed out yet he made me look like a dumbass? What because constantly insulted him? Ummm... no.

No he made you look like a dumbass becasue

1) He wasn't even really arguing with you, he was just trying to get you riled up. The fact that you think you owned someone in an argument when you were the only one arguing is sad.
2) He didn't respond to your points but you also didn't respond to his points, making you a hypocrite. He said about 5 times that Joe Budden didn't have a classic album before you finally replied to it.
3) When you finally did reply you just stated Joe Budden's albums were better and then said you said you shot down his excuse for an argument. That's not doing shit. I could say Soulja Boy is better than Joe Budden. Is that shooting down any argument you have? No. You better be coming with some great evidence if you're going to make claims like that.

Now don't go on a rant dissing me (even though you probably will), I'm just trying to teach you the ways of the internet.

[Master Chief]

No he made you look like a dumbass becasue

1) He wasn't even really arguing with you, he was just trying to get you riled up. The fact that you think you owned someone in an argument when you were the only one arguing is sad.

I don't care if he was arguing with me or not, I just wanted to prove him wrong on everything so everyone could actually see for themselves, how full of shit he is.

2) He didn't respond to your points but you also didn't respond to his points, making you a hypocrite. He said about 5 times that Joe Budden didn't have a classic album before you finally replied to it.

That wasn't really an argument, just a retarded claim that I still eventually responded to.

3) When you finally did reply you just stated Joe Budden's albums were better and then said you said you shot down his excuse for an argument. That's not doing shit. I could say Soulja Boy is better than Joe Budden. Is that shooting down any argument you have? No. You better be coming with some great evidence if you're going to make claims like that.

Now don't go on a rant dissing me (even though you probably will), I'm just trying to teach you the ways of the internet.

I responded to retarded and bland claim with an answer with no backing whatsoever because I'm not gonna put much effort into such a horrible excuse for an argument. I could easily say why pretty much every Joe Budden album/mixtape is "great" but I'm not gonna waste my time going too in-depth on that so instead I just name the best Budden albums and mixtapes.

[classthe_king]

No he made you look like a dumbass becasue

1) He wasn't even really arguing with you, he was just trying to get you riled up. The fact that you think you owned someone in an argument when you were the only one arguing is sad.

I don't care if he was arguing with me or not, I just wanted to prove him wrong on everything so everyone could actually see for themselves, how full of shit he is.

Of course he's full of shit, he was trolling you. And if you wanted to make him look bad, you could have easily done it with just a couple sentences and statements. The excessive name calling and insults made you look bad.

2) He didn't respond to your points but you also didn't respond to his points, making you a hypocrite. He said about 5 times that Joe Budden didn't have a classic album before you finally replied to it.

That wasn't really an argument, just a retarded claim that I still eventually responded to.

A lot of people care about discography, that's not a retarded claim. Especially when it's comparing 2pac to Budden, 2pac is known for crafting great albums. Not Joe Budden, even Zu would admit that Joe Budden makes great songs but can't really put together great albums.

3) When you finally did reply you just stated Joe Budden's albums were better and then said you said you shot down his excuse for an argument. That's not doing shit. I could say Soulja Boy is better than Joe Budden. Is that shooting down any argument you have? No. You better be coming with some great evidence if you're going to make claims like that.

Now don't go on a rant dissing me (even though you probably will), I'm just trying to teach you the ways of the internet.

I responded to retarded and bland claim with an answer with no backing whatsoever because I'm not gonna put much effort into such a horrible excuse for an argument. I could easily say why pretty much every Joe Budden album/mixtape is "great" but I'm not gonna waste my time going too in-depth on that so instead I just name the best Budden albums and mixtapes.

Then you should have just stated that you liked those albums better, not stating it like it was a fact then stating that you shot down his argument.

[dead prez]

First off fuck you Satire with 14 large black cocks till they nut in your face and you cup their balls with your hands...

Anyways despite not being a Pac stan I actually enjoy quite a few songs off his, though I don't really hold him in high regard like many others do. I guess I could if we're talking about external factors that don't have anything to do with music like cultural relevance and persona (though persona does directly affect your music, and I'll get into that a little bit later in this rant). Now I haven't listened to Budden's disco in it's entirety and quite frankly I don't care enough to do that.

So here's the meat of my post, delivery undoubtedly goes to Pac, and btw delivery isn't subjective despite what people tell you, voice is, and if you'd rather listen to Budden's voice than fine. But we all know that's not one of his strong points, whereas Pac's voice is what makes him standout. The reason I said delivery isn't subjective is because it's affected by how clear and energetic you are on the mic, Pac had unbelievable energy on the mic, Budden has emotion don't get me wrong, but few have matched in Pac's emotion. Not to mention has conveyed a plethora of different emotions from anger to sadness, none of it felt contrived and it all felt pretty legitimate.

Though Cee-Lo conveyed emotion the best.

Discography is easily in Pac's favor, the guy has three solid albums all which can be argued as being classics, add in his previous efforts before MATW which were pretty solid and a handful of leftover material and well the guy was a workhouse who practically lived in the studio. I do wish he'd stop having these stupid posthmous albums which are half assed material thrown together for a quick buck, not really his fault but it's just tarnishing his legacy altogether.

Budden's disco, well I haven't listened to it in it's entirety so I can't really comment, though I fucking hate people who put so much effort into mixtapes, rather than treating it as a side bonus it's meant to be, to the point that it's disrupting album quality. And unless you're Krit or Cunninlynguists than you can piss off with mixtapes.

I'm not gonna front like I'm one of those that put disco in the forefront of judging an mc's quality but this is undoubtedly Pac's strongest quality, in which he has arguably the best disco out off all the goat candidates (Eminem, Nas, Big, Jay z exlclusively). So I might as well throw it in there.

Although this can't really be attributed to direct music quality, but I think persona is important and lot's of people tend to overlook this. Pac had charisma and was a character (for better or for worse), when he wrote lyrics you can tell that he wasn't just a man writing lyrics, he transcended that. Which can be attributed to his larger than life persona and the fact that he lived what he rapped, pretty much. A lot of rappers at times, just feel like rappers, but that's it. Even guys like Nas, OBL, ad Elzhi all just sound like guys that rap, it's hard to pinpoint it to it being their general lack of charisma or authenticity, but they just feel like rappers. And to show that it's not just big celebrities that have this aura around them, I feel K'naan mostly on the album Dusty Foot Philosopher is very authentic and real in the album projecting the dangers in his homeland, a lot of the enjoyment of the music would be from knowing K'naan's past and that he witnessed firsthand what he's rapping about, it just magnifies his persona a lot more, and wouldn't at all be the same if he just made an album about the hardships in Somalia, but didn't really come from that place. Pac gives off a similar feeling in his music that is akin to K'naan in Dusty Foot Philosopher, not saying Budden isn't real because he's pretty open with his music. But to me he just comes off as a guy that raps about his life and that's it.

Lyrics, this is one part that I really need to address that many people in this site don't even know what the fuck they're talking about when they say somebody is a better lyricist than X. I'll glady concede to Pac being inferior to Budden in multies, even though the latter isn't exactly a phenomenal rhymer himself, hell maybe even complexity in general. But for some stupid reason, people in this site like to think that being a more complex lyricist makes someone inherently better, which I call bullshit on. I'm not going to say Pac's a better lyricist than Budden, because I feel that lyricism is even more subjective than delivery especially when dealing with content. Like I said Pac tackled tons of serious issues that were relevant at the time, and has many shades to him, above all he's a poet. I'm not saying that Budden doesn't have any of those to him, but when people try to say he's a better lyricist because of "punchlines" or wordplay than you can go jump off a building. There's a time and place for wordplay, and some songs aren't really appropriate for having them, especially when it's a serious or solemn song, kinda detract from the whole immersion and atmosphere in it. I think I've said it a million times in this paragraph, but being complex does not make something inherently better, it lies on execution, and if you can get the point across beautifully without trying to lose yourself in the complexity of the song than more points for you. Rather simple beauty than petulant sophistry (Dumb it down pretty much accentuates this point with how Lupe makes a song about being complex simply for the sake of being complex but gets lost in it) , and Pac was a great songwriter that could connect with others, and it wouldn't be the same if he had wordplay or metaphors in every line. Though if he could incorporate multies without sacrificing songwriting than he would have been even better, his actual content though, was fine the way it was, and needs no touch ups.

Flow, I guess I'll concede that Budden has better flow, even though Pac's decent especially for the time, Budden is alright but I really don't think he's much of a technical rapper. Focuses more on his content like Pac.

[Satire]

First, I'd like to offer a big, generous carton of roflnoggin to everybody sticking to my balls for making this thread like it's so "unspoken" or some shit for anybody besides Eminem, Nas and Biggie to be compared to 2Pac on this forum. Second, thank you diction, for having the most well thought out post in this thread. I was going to say I can't be fucked to read it but 14 black cocks up my ass beg to differ, so I figured I had a few moments to compensate you for your work while I'm stuck over here picking them out.

Now, I could give a fuck less who everyone thinks is "better", which is why I didn't ask who is "better" and I didn't put up a poll for your candy asses to hide behind, I asked who do you prefer, and if you prefer an artist because it makes you feel like a cup of Pringles while you listen knowing that he's going to be remembered 20 years from now (Even though that's impossible considering humanity would have rotated upside down, fucked itself in the colon and collapsed by then from the growing mass of idiots like you running around) and has a "deeper impact" then lol. You might as well prefer my platinum armored cock right now because that's about to make a deeper impact in you than that sacred cow ever had a chance to.

Hell yes they are comparable, because what made them both great was that they were able to convey stunning emotion in relatively simple and connecting lyrics. Saying they aren't comparable is like saying it's dumb to compare Lupe/Slug to Nas. It's stupid to compare Biggie or Big L to 2Pac because even though they are largely recognized as legends they have completely different styles and intentions in their music, but no, when they're put together that is not a "lopsided match-up" and it's not looked down upon, instead, an ass fucked Vs. like that is labeled a "Long-Waged War".

And finally, even if for some mysterious reason that I'm not aware of Pac's skill level was MILES beyond Budden's, why give two halves of a shit? If you do want to give two halves of a shit, swallow one of them and shove the other one back up your ass, because you wouldn't give a fuck if I compared Kid Cudi to Lupe Fiasco, even if one is obviously technically better than the other, you would sit your pixie-stick-in-the-ass down and tell me about the "reasons you prefer" and shit, bitch. Now that I've made that clear, I'm going to explain why I made this topic, why I hold them so closely, and elaborate in an answer to my own thread:

Emotion: This is very debatable. Pac, imo, had the one of the most emotional voices in hip-hop while he was alive, but that's not the only source of emotion in rap music. It's a mix of delivery, timing and lyricism itself. I feel like Joe Budden explains and immerses himself in his own lyrics where it's to the point where he actually feels human while Pac has the delivery that Budden wished he possessed. I guess I would give this to 2Pac because Budden can seem monotonous at times and his delivery doesn't match up to his lyrics in his earlier work.

Mic Presence: 2Pac's most positive aspect imo was that unexplained element he has that can capture any listener in his music and make them want to listen to what this man is saying. I don't know if it's his voice, delivery, his content, his reverse pear-shaped head, but it's something that Budden is obviously lacking with this much negative feedback. He doesn't sound like he's just rapping, he sounds like he's literally yelling at you, without ever sounding hollow like Eminem's anger now a days. I only get that with a few rappers, so I have to give this to Pac.

Flow: Neither of them are extraordinary (Joe Budden is even fucking horrible at times) but I'm going to give this to 2Pac for being more consistent and even riding some beats relatively well, see that Troublesome '96 song I linked in the OP. Budden's peak in flow is probably higher than Pac's and it actually shows in Slaughterhouse but for most of his career he spent more time trying to get his message across than giving two fucks about how he's actually sounding, which is why we have albums with brilliant concepts and lyricism but sound like a hippo shat on their heads like Escape Route.

Delivery/Voice: 2Pac. See Mic Presence.

Beats/production: 2Pac's production is dated and his delivery heavily carried most of the beats he was on. Maybe it's just me, but the production he was on didn't have any personality, to be honest. I did enjoy a few, but other than the amazingly west-coast oriented ones it sounded like he could be rapping on any other 90's rap beats. Which is actually proven, considering how many fucking OG versions of his songs there are out there leaking every day.

Joe Budden has been inconsistent for most of his career but IMO, his best beats > Pac's, and Mood Muzik 4 had better production than any Pac album. It was very dark, and fitting to Budden's work, while it created a certain new atmosphere for his music. It had personality. Now when I hear a certain type of beat, I could say "Damn, Joe Budden would sound great on this" which is more than I can say for Pac, because his great phonetics and dime a dozen R&B singers is practically what made every song he was on.

Multis/Rhyming: Like FreeSpeech & Lello, I'm going to break this off as a part of lyricism because both of their brands of lyric could do with or without them. Pac surprises me at times and he was decent for his time but Budden is evolving in a time where you either have great delivery, production or can spit 2 subsequential bars that coherently rhyme together if you want to be respected between the wigger hip-hop net heads of the world. It's like a requirement as part of Slaughterhouse so obviously, Budden.

Content & Lyricism: This is the most difficult part of the breakdown and this is basically the intent behind this comparison.

Budden is more technically sound and complex, not just rhyming but also wordplay/metaphors, (And more often than not, he doesn't use it in a unfitting or contrived manner where it sounds like he wrote it down one day when he thought of it and has been saving it to use in a song for a while. They're used sparsely, it never seems like he wrote the previous line just to use that wordplay. They're very subtle punches and add to the imagery of the lyrics.) 2Pac, as diction mentioned, was an artist who wasn't specific to personal troubles. Joe Budden, on the other hand, even though he hasn't expanded his subject matter onto the people other than select songs, has fleshed out his introspective side far more than Pac's. Budden has the character of a depressed dreamer, Pac had the character of an oppressed leader who spoke for his people. They both have displayed just about every emotion you possibly could in their music, from angry to cocky to depressed. You can relate and connect to either equally, but through different directions. I don't consider anybody a better lyricist because of how many people it pertains to. Is J. Cole a better lyricist than Eminem? Hell no. It's good to not be a whiny emo bitch, (which Budden isn't, btw. Three Sides Of A Story is hardly what I would call introspective, but it's widely received as one of his best concept tracks in terms of lyricism), but I don't think it's that big of an upper-hand to hold over anybody, and execution definitely plays a crucial part in it as well.

I feel that lyricism is even more subjective than delivery especially when dealing with content

This is too true. The highest point of both artists isn't their technical skill or else they both would have been forgotten a long time ago. It's what they're saying, and in my opinion, Joe Budden has far more interesting lyrics than 2Pac. They both had their moments where what they're saying felt repetitious, but Budden has come up with amazing, deep concepts that are laced in the entire underlying song (Exxxes), and I always felt him easier to relate to because of how flawed he really is, as an artist, and as a human. Sometimes Pac would touch on a single subject in 1-2 lines through a couple songs, Budden actually dedicates entire verses to small stories. This may seem melodramatic to some, but to me, elaboration made him feel easier to relate to. They both touched on so many subjects of life, 2Pac being more...articulate with his phrasing, but Budden being clearer and more understandable from my perspective, but also having the ability to create cryptic & original concepts for every release and also being better just from a technical side. Budden, imo.

Discography/Catalog: The Mood Muzik series & Escape Route vs. Me Against The World, 2Pacalypse Now & The 7 Day Theory.

It depends on what you consider a discography. Don't come at me with semantics like "Mood Muzik aren't really albums", predictable cunt-puppet. Contrary to popular belief, the dictionary definition of a discography is not a collection of the number of quality "discs" or albums in your catalog, but

"A descriptive catalog of musical recordings, particularly those of a particular performer or composer"

That pertains to any music recorded by an artist. I don't let the label of a "mixtape" diminish the credibility of a release at all, especially with Joe Budden. Mood Muzik 2-4 all have a unique theme/concept, the majority of the production is original with the exception of like 6 beats in between the three of them, and the sequencing of the songs all have a purpose, they might as well be albums. Hell, they even distribute them as albums on the side with releases like "MM3/MM4: The Album".

The reason of an argument in discography is to argue how well time/length & consistency has matched up to the actual music, right? Atleast that's how I view it. That being said, Joe Budden, by a smudge since I don't care about "impact".

Joe Budden's weak links are Joe Budden, Mood Muzik 1. Mood Muzik 1 was the only piece of his catalog that actually "felt" like a mixtape, but because of that rant I had earlier, I can't exempt it, so I'll admit that Budden's worse is probably worse than Pac's worse when he was alive. I don't know, I've only listened to 4 2Pac albums but I'm sure none of them are as "meh" as self-titled.

As for All Eyez On Me, it was riddled with obnoxious filler and held in the pedestal that it is because it was 2Pac's highest selling release, being a double disc and the last released CD before his untimely death (7 Day Theory being released 2 months after his shooting, I think of it as AEOM being the minutes before his death and Don Killuminati being the funeral). Can it be considered a "hip-hop classic" in the general sense of consistent good reception over time? Yes. Does it have it's highlights? Yes, great ones in fact. Do I consider it a "great album"? No.

That's 4-4. This is how close it is for me. All of Me, Role Reversal, Pray For Me//Changes, Only God Can Judge Me and Fuck The World are some of my favorite songs of all time, so don't tell me that this topic is some type of a joke because 2Pac has death-hype oozing out of his African maggot infested corpse. I'm obviously going to have to defend this thread even further after this wall of text so let me put on my argumentative monocle and attached strap-on to get this going.

[dead prez]

I'm not trying to spark a debate, just felt like giving my opinions...

[ajsotb]

2pac is dope all eyez on me,don killuminati,me against the world are classics imo pac had great energy

joe budden is dope i like mood muzik 4 black cloud is my favorite but he isnt a leader like pac pac had that frontman personality joey doesnt joe is more lyrical and i love lyrical rap but id rather listen to changes then anything buddens done

[Master Chief]

Of course he's full of shit, he was trolling you. And if you wanted to make him look bad, you could have easily done it with just a couple sentences and statements. The excessive name calling and insults made you look bad.

We still don't know if he's trolling, remember that. I called him names because it's just what I do lol. I still brought up and argument so it's acceptable.

A lot of people care about discography, that's not a retarded claim. Especially when it's comparing 2pac to Budden, 2pac is known for crafting great albums. Not Joe Budden, even Zu would admit that Joe Budden makes great songs but can't really put together great albums.

He said Joe Budden is a 30+ rapper that has never made a single great album. That is a retarded claim. 2Pac has a better discography technically or whatever but I prefer Joe Budden's.

Then you should have just stated that you liked those albums better, not stating it like it was a fact then stating that you shot down his argument.

He's acting like it's a fact that Joe Budden has never made a great album so I kindly shot back with a similar response.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

Tupac is very overrated.

Master Chief

[dead prez]

I don't want to be Embase...

[Chet Starr]

Eminembase makes long rants about himself being crazy, and every now and again good points about Eminem

Diction makes sense

[classthe_king]

That wasn't even close to an Embase post simply because he brought up new points with every statement. He wasn't rephrasing the same point 700 times.

[Kez]

First off fuck you Satire with 14 large black cocks till they nut in your face and you cup their balls with your hands...

Anyways despite not being a Pac stan I actually enjoy quite a few songs off his, though I don't really hold him in high regard like many others do. I guess I could if we're talking about external factors that don't have anything to do with music like cultural relevance and persona (though persona does directly affect your music, and I'll get into that a little bit later in this rant). Now I haven't listened to Budden's disco in it's entirety and quite frankly I don't care enough to do that.

So here's the meat of my post, delivery undoubtedly goes to Pac, and btw delivery isn't subjective despite what people tell you, voice is, and if you'd rather listen to Budden's voice than fine. But we all know that's not one of his strong points, whereas Pac's voice is what makes him standout. The reason I said delivery isn't subjective is because it's affected by how clear and energetic you are on the mic, Pac had unbelievable energy on the mic, Budden has emotion don't get me wrong, but few have matched in Pac's emotion. Not to mention has conveyed a plethora of different emotions from anger to sadness, none of it felt contrived and it all felt pretty legitimate.

Though Cee-Lo conveyed emotion the best.

Discography is easily in Pac's favor, the guy has three solid albums all which can be argued as being classics, add in his previous efforts before MATW which were pretty solid and a handful of leftover material and well the guy was a workhouse who practically lived in the studio. I do wish he'd stop having these stupid posthmous albums which are half assed material thrown together for a quick buck, not really his fault but it's just tarnishing his legacy altogether.

Budden's disco, well I haven't listened to it in it's entirety so I can't really comment, though I fucking hate people who put so much effort into mixtapes, rather than treating it as a side bonus it's meant to be, to the point that it's disrupting album quality. And unless you're Krit or Cunninlynguists than you can piss off with mixtapes.

I'm not gonna front like I'm one of those that put disco in the forefront of judging an mc's quality but this is undoubtedly Pac's strongest quality, in which he has arguably the best disco out off all the goat candidates (Eminem, Nas, Big, Jay z exlclusively). So I might as well throw it in there.

Although this can't really be attributed to direct music quality, but I think persona is important and lot's of people tend to overlook this. Pac had charisma and was a character (for better or for worse), when he wrote lyrics you can tell that he wasn't just a man writing lyrics, he transcended that. Which can be attributed to his larger than life persona and the fact that he lived what he rapped, pretty much. A lot of rappers at times, just feel like rappers, but that's it. Even guys like Nas, OBL, ad Elzhi all just sound like guys that rap, it's hard to pinpoint it to it being their general lack of charisma or authenticity, but they just feel like rappers. And to show that it's not just big celebrities that have this aura around them, I feel K'naan mostly on the album Dusty Foot Philosopher is very authentic and real in the album projecting the dangers in his homeland, a lot of the enjoyment of the music would be from knowing K'naan's past and that he witnessed firsthand what he's rapping about, it just magnifies his persona a lot more, and wouldn't at all be the same if he just made an album about the hardships in Somalia, but didn't really come from that place. Pac gives off a similar feeling in his music that is akin to K'naan in Dusty Foot Philosopher, not saying Budden isn't real because he's pretty open with his music. But to me he just comes off as a guy that raps about his life and that's it.

Lyrics, this is one part that I really need to address that many people in this site don't even know what the fuck they're talking about when they say somebody is a better lyricist than X. I'll glady concede to Pac being inferior to Budden in multies, even though the latter isn't exactly a phenomenal rhymer himself, hell maybe even complexity in general. But for some stupid reason, people in this site like to think that being a more complex lyricist makes someone inherently better, which I call bullshit on. I'm not going to say Pac's a better lyricist than Budden, because I feel that lyricism is even more subjective than delivery especially when dealing with content. Like I said Pac tackled tons of serious issues that were relevant at the time, and has many shades to him, above all he's a poet. I'm not saying that Budden doesn't have any of those to him, but when people try to say he's a better lyricist because of "punchlines" or wordplay than you can go jump off a building. There's a time and place for wordplay, and some songs aren't really appropriate for having them, especially when it's a serious or solemn song, kinda detract from the whole immersion and atmosphere in it. I think I've said it a million times in this paragraph, but being complex does not make something inherently better, it lies on execution, and if you can get the point across beautifully without trying to lose yourself in the complexity of the song than more points for you. Rather simple beauty than petulant sophistry (Dumb it down pretty much accentuates this point with how Lupe makes a song about being complex simply for the sake of being complex but gets lost in it) , and Pac was a great songwriter that could connect with others, and it wouldn't be the same if he had wordplay or metaphors in every line. Though if he could incorporate multies without sacrificing songwriting than he would have been even better, his actual content though, was fine the way it was, and needs no touch ups.

Flow, I guess I'll concede that Budden has better flow, even though Pac's decent especially for the time, Budden is alright but I really don't think he's much of a technical rapper. Focuses more on his content like Pac.