What Would You Say Eminem's Strength/Weakness in Rapping Is?

[EminemBase]

When at his best, he's pretty much the best in every department.

Rhyming, flow, structure, delivery... everything.

But when he's bad? or questionable? well, it's really only the subject-matter that bothers me. He's never been really bad for me, in basically any department.

On Encore he was just lazy, and fucking around. But when he put effort in ("Evil Deeds", "Mosh", "Crazy In Love") he was still good. Not as good, but some great high points, and very consistent. And even at his worst he's often better than a lot of over-rated so called greats.

I'd say his major flaw content wise is self-obsession. Most rappers are self-obsessed but I think he takes the cake in that department. And it's a shame, as now at least... I feel it's a waste of his talent. Think of how ingeniously he can analyze OTHER people as well ("Bully"). So imagine him dedicated to looking OUTSIDE of himself...

It would open up a whole new world and he could practically have a whole new career of excellence. People only sound tired when they keep trying to re-invent the same thing.

And whilst he's always able to successfully create new styles (amazing that he's still finding ways after seven solo albums) - he keeps circulating the same subjects. He finds new ways to talk about the subjects, or put new spins on them, but tales of self woes have become more than tired.

"Mosh" is a great example of him applying his talent to write about something worth writing about, other than himself. And he shines on it. I consider "Mosh" excellent and that was him at his LOWEST point. Imagine if he had decided to write it in 2002.

That's basically the only thing that seriously frustrates me about him. I loved the Relapse style(s) and I love the shouting style. I've only had a problem with the shitty production that is still continuously ruining potential classic songs. But when he utilizes the shouting to the max like on the "Fame" (D12) verse, or in particular "Above the Law", it's like cocaine. So satisfying.

I wish that he'd do repeated rhyme schemes more too, like on "Fame". It sounds brilliant.

So yeah, every time I hear him spit another verse about sporadic shit, mock mysoginy, his past or present status again, it fucking annoys me.

He also treats music too formulaic I think. This works for him when it comes to lyrics and consistency but when making songs, it now works against him. He should be experimenting more as he sticks to this VERSE 1 / CHORUS / VERSE 2 / CHORUS / VERSE 3 / CHORUS structure constantly. I wish he was like Kanye and just asked "why not?" about every element of song making, fucked with choruses and ideas and had inflated, grandeur ambitions.

Think about the amount of song possibilities. Everybody thinks so small and is so lame. Why not just make a 'stream of consciousness' song - fuck sense, fuck logic, fuck 'rules' within rap, fuck sensibility, fuck perception, just let thoughts fly and flow and make it into a cohesive piece of music. Just experiment like this, the possibilities and exciting potential, is endless.

You could make a song called "Confusion" for example and have it be on the topic of confusion, dig into your own and the world's psyche, rap sporadically and manically about politics, the economy, rap music, consciousness, people, society etc. etc. - everything and how it's confusing and tie it into a theme. Treat songs like movies, be totally extreme and try to make the greatest record of your life every time you do it. It annoys me he, or nobody I can think of, thinks like that. Literally try to embody confusion in your execution and the song's beat and structure etc.

I mean even Kanye, yeah he's amazingly ambitious with the production and sometimes he ventures into interesting territory with a line or two but generally speaking it's just: love, money, himself and public perception, bragging, rapping about what he's done etc. it's so fucking lame and repetitive. Think of what petty fucking thinking that is... I just don't get why there basically hasn't been a single rapper that's thought outside of this. I know there are probably tons of very experimental hip hop acts, underground, that I haven't heard or that are more in this area, but even from the more experimental I've briefly glanced at... it's still rooted and formed in a basic structure.

The Marshall Mathers LP was sheer genius due to it being a live provocation on which he assumed that the world was listening, it's a concept record in a sense, it's the only significant dedication to a grand and daring concept I've ever seen in rap. I've heard plenty of daring and exciting LINES, but they're just lines... within basic songs, about basic things.

I don't get why rappers think of creative lines but not creative song ideas. It's so fucking endless, people think so formulaic and realistic. / rant.

I wanna pick your brain cause I would really want to experiment by I can't think of anything... :/
Soooo what would YOU do for a new format.

Maybe something along the lines of Verse 1/Verse 2/Verse 3 with a hook playing in the background? I can't see a song getting big without a hook and record companies would never except something without a hook unless it sell better. Plus, the only kind of verbal formats that exist are hooks, bridges, and verses. Or are you thinking simpler outside of creating a unknown style such as..

Hook/Verse 1/Hook/Verse 2/Bridge/Verse 3/Hook? That would however be the Airplanes Part 2 format which is less used but common enough.

You're still thinking within the formats you know, as if there's rules.

Music is art. There are NO rules in art, throw everything that has ever been done out the window and do everything exactly how you want to do and push it to the extreme, and you will create something that is truly unique.

You could have a song that is say ten minutes long, with multiple hooks that come in at various times, then you could play off each hook - you could make each little hook some kind of wordplay that inspires the next tangent of lyricism...

And you could record different styles and place them all closely together within the song, and just make it a rhyming exhibition say. Challenge yourself to rhyme as many words as humanely possible, no subject-matter, no rules, and you could make it feel live... as in... stop somewhere in the middle of writing and write the next lines in a different style that are responses to the previous lyrics.

So the end result could be this big, exhilarating lyrical conversation that bounces between styles, surprises you at every turn, boggles minds with the amount of styles and sounds erratic and exciting in the execution, with voices all over the place... and you could even have the beat change up to fit the style and then go back, make it bizarre. And call it "Schizophrenia".

And on from that, you could make a song called... "Bipolar" and try to embody the mental disorder with the music and lyrics. You could make it perhaps, a conceptual, fictional 'airing' of your thoughts. So don't even acknowledge the song, the listener or the fact it's a track anywhere in the lyrics, write complex, psychological lyrics that sound as if they're realistic thoughts that are just spilling everywhere...

It could be say, two very long verses with a huge orchestra of madness in the middle as a chorus to capture the mood instability and madness. The music could be dark and menacing... the first verse could be the mania... so it starts off happy, so the lyrics would be egotistic and emphasized, constant tangents and mock philosophy, business ideas etc. then you would write the lyrics to start to logically go towards the negative, for the second verse.

As they become more negative the music gets more dramatic, the orchestrated, epic chorus kicks in and you just have vocal recordings of morphed thoughts in between the sounds, then the second verse = depression. So then you totally embody and express the darkest, deepest and most extreme and sincere depressive thoughts and lyrics humanely possible, obviously it'd be better if they got worse as they went. Then the end of the song - you kill yourself.

But the lead up to it could be epic, like a movie.

Another idea... you could write a song where you begin to storytell about a lyricist / rapper / artist, describing each detail lyrically more and more, the life of the aritst, his ambitions etc. then as the song progresses you could realize (in the song / lyrics) that you're talking about yourself. But then even when you realize, act as if you can't stop, and write lyrics that comment on what you're saying in the song, as you're actually saying it...

And go insane on the song because of it. Kind of like a musical Stranger Than Fiction or something. That idea could be played around with and maximized well.

I wish I could use Eminem as a puppet and just create what I wanted with his talents. Or, imagine creating opera rap. Imagine taking a fast, manic, dazzling Mozart or Bach symphony, turning it into a hip hop production (a grand, thumping, rich, deep production) and having Em rap a ridiculously detailed first person, crazy as fuck murder tale or fantasy on it.

As the symphony gets more manic the details get more gruesome and the story climaxes in insane ways, he could work wonders with that.

Such a fucking waste. Instead? non-stop dick puns and mock misogyny. Brilliant. I've never seen a single artist truly reach their potential or dig deep and abstract and think TOTALLY outside of the box. Not just 'yeah that's pretty original' or 'cool', I mean, just... throwing every rule out the fucking window and creating pure magic. Kanye is certainly trying now, with My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy... "Hell of a Life" is one of his better ideas. That's more like the kind of thing he should be doing, it's true art.. he just had an idea and ran with it. And commited to it.

As for labels and hits etc. - fuck all of that. If I was an artist that wouldn't enter my mind for a second. If they wont let you do exactly what you want? just be independent. And if you can't make enough money from it, make money from something else but still do the music / art exactly how you want it. Art is not worth compromising, even a TINY bit, for money.

I'd rather be broke and creating things that I pour my every thought and ounce of effort into and that I think could potentially change the face of music rather than creating shit, compromised, formatted music that is more like a product. Or even just 'good' music, it's pointless. If you're doing it for the money, or hits, you're not doing it for very good reasons.

And Em has absolutely zero excuse. He's rich as fuck and doesn't need hits. Firstly, he has all the power - not only does he have his own label, but if Interscope or Jimmy try to 'force' him to make X hit or do whatever, he can just say "okay, it's either my way, or I quit " do you seriously think they'd drop the biggest artist on planet Earth? they'd do anything to hang onto him, he's a pot of gold.

So really, he can do whatever the fuck he likes. And in some senses he does, you can tell he isn't compromising his thoughts. But he's definitely looking to appeal to people and he clearly tried to fit in with Recovery. I don't really think that was the label making him do it though, I think he just likes to be liked and couldn't handle the criticism of Relapse. So wanted mainstream praise.

I can't believe he seriously thinks he's gonna shock anybody or surprise anybody with any single thought he can think up now. Not a fucking chance. When he was new and morons were tying to figure out if he was joking or actually like that, that's why it worked. Now? no way, nothing will. Unless it's something genuinely racist or deeply offensive which he isn't joking about. Which is just pointless, he's more than a silly shock artist.

So he should forget choking bitches and dissing pop stars now. Whilst on occasion, such as "Almost Famous", he takes it to beautiful heights, and I fucking love that track but overall, he should be thinking a lot bigger. Fuck lines, fuck formats. Just forget it all, let your mind open up and see what's inside it, if I was in his shoes, it's NOW when I'd be doing the craziest, most experimental ideas I could possibly think of.

As he has the respect, the legacy, he's rich for life and has the freedom to do what he likes. Even if the label dropped him, if all he's doing it for is the music, he could just fucking put it out on the Internet, who cares. As long as people hear it. And he's so huge he could have a career like that too, and probably still have no.1 hits from his fucking bedroom.

Now that he has all this attention back on him and he's huge, I'd totally flip the page now and try to create groundbreaking material that outshines anything anybody has ever done. And whilst you'd assume that's always his intention... clearly it's not. He seems to treat songs like jobs, like 'okay done X kind of song, let's do Y kind of song'. You don't have to balance fuck all, you can do what you like, if you wanna do 20 songs about one thing do it. The more extreme the better as the more extreme it is, the more different and unique it is.

[Man1x]

EmBase, you desirve to be famous IMO. Love you man, no homo. I just think your inteligence exceeds anything this world known.

You're right about a song has to have a hook to become a smash hit, but Em doesnt have to make all of his songs to be huge singles. There are a ton of different ways to structure songs. There doesnt have to be a formula at all. That's the beauty of it. He could do Hook/singing interlude/long verse/hook/bridge/interlude/verse/outro if he wanted to. Its hard to compare rap and metal, but look at Metallica. They have HUGE singles that are all different types of formulas. Hell some of their songs go intro/instrument breakdown/verse/chorus/instrumental break/verse/chorus/bridge/interlude/solo/breakdown/verse/chorus/outro. Em just needs to experiment a little more but I dont think its a HUGE problem.

Im more worried about the content over anything else though.

And, IDC about smash hits, I want good lyrics and well good everything....there is a huge list I'm to tired to type. But the thing is you need to find a medium between creativity and antention drawing. The purpose of a hook is to keep the listener listening. Thus in many cases hits are songs that have more hook sections than verses and begin and end with a hook. I don't think you need to do that format at all. In fact, I'd love more creativity but what's the point of creativity if you can't draw people in to listen? That is where Jay-Z falls short in songs where he has only one verse. However, the things EmBase mentioned could draw attention because the human ear would love that as ear candy (all that he suggested). This brings me to Welcome 2 Hell aswell, and this is where Em and Royce beat Jay, there song is just verses but unlike Jay's verse only songs they can grab your attention with their delivery and verse structure. They contently switch off and play off one another.

[EminemInsider]

Prime

Strengths: Everything

Weaknesses: None. Just had a "lesser strength" with punchlines.

Now:

Strengths: Cool look until he starts the corny hand motions and movements.

Weaknesses: Everything rap-wise.

[momentsgolden]

@Eminembase, i think now you going over the top with "artist integrity." Yes, compromising for money is wrong and should therefore NOT be done but whats wrong with trying to connect to your audience? Whats wrong with making your songs in such a way that people actually UNDERSTAND you? Whats wrong with purposefully changing how you make PUBLIC music (still within YOUR OWN AVENUE) so as to give the "best music possible." Do you realise Eminem's first 2 albums were made to "get a reaction" so that he could ultimately make money? Its public and should be treated as such

To put it in perspective, Eminem admitted Dr Dre showed him how to slow down on tracks so that he is audible. If he went Eminembase style he'd be a fucking Twista and look where Twista is at now? Very few people check that out consistently coz when they cant hear what you gotta say, why even listen to you. He had Relapse 2 and he could have released it, why not? Coz it wasnt appropriate for the majority of his fans (fuck TRshady purists 90 % of Eminem fans were sick of those accents before Refill even dropped).

Actually, (and i hope my hypothesis IS the case) Eminem makes ALOT of creative, Zany music for himself. Wee Wee, Balling Uncontrollably, Difficult, 50 ways, Syllables, Can-I-Bitch, GOAT, Apple, Lil Wayne/Kanye disses, Ronnie Tribute hell, even most of HTS was supposed to be like that. Love or hate this songs, they are obviously materially different whether in structure, content, delivery, lyricism or whatever. But because they were experimental. Because they were FOR HIMSELF they were never and should never have been released. Its for him.

But i do concede his reliance on structure is very monotonous and gets boring. ESPECIALLY hooks. Sometimes (On Fire, for example) he ddnt want a hook, he ddnt need a hook, he couldnt even be fucked to have a hook but still FORCED that garbage on the track. Thats when it gets to me. Welcome to Hell, Public Enemy Number 1, Difficult are examples where lack of a hook works so perfectly. He should incorporate his "experimental" track elements into his albums and features more.

[EminemBase]

@Eminembase, i think now you going over the top with "artist integrity." Yes, compromising for money is wrong and should therefore NOT be done but whats wrong with trying to connect to your audience? Whats wrong with making your songs in such a way that people actually UNDERSTAND you? Whats wrong with purposefully changing how you make PUBLIC music (still within YOUR OWN AVENUE) so as to give the "best music possible."

I'm not going over the top with it at all.

A connection to an audience should be an upshot, for most artists. Eminem is a reactionary artist, he not only aims to get a reaction but a lot of his work is a reaction to the reaction. So that's different.

There's nothing wrong with gaining or sustaining a huge audience. But there's something wrong in AIMING for it. It shouldn't enter an artist's mind. The Marshall Mathers LP and some of Em's work is entirely different as that's its entire focus, but it was conceptual and provocative. And he was capitalizing on public exploitation. But that's not typical of his work now and doesn't mean he can't be creative.

Obviously every artist would love people to hear and appreciate their work, who wouldn't.

And it's also worth noting, despite him going for a reaction, the material and execution was exactly how he wanted it. The only interference or commercial attempts on his first three albums, were the lead singles. Which fit anyway. But those three albums prove that Em just trying to please himself is always best.

When Eminem pleases himself, we get The Slim Shady LP and The Marshall Mathers LP, which are cohesive, artistic, daring, memorable pieces of work. When Eminem tries to please others, we get Encore and Recovery, which are muddled, confused and sometimes embarrassing.

But the only thing that should ever ever matter to any true artist who just cares about the art, should be what THEY think of their work. If an artist is second-guessing himself to try and please people other than himself, then it's a job. And you're not creating meaningful art, you're creating a product that you're targeting at specific people.

You should just create whatever you like, however you like and like minded people will like it. If you change things or aim for X person or people who DISLIKE what you're currently doing... then how do you EVER know who your 'true' audience is as there will ALWAYS be some people who don't like what you do. So what, are you going to infinitely change what you do to constantly appease this never ending line of people who aren't like minded in the first place? that's ridiculous and retarded.

Your audience are the people who like what you do. And that can change. So, like with Relapse - when some of his 'fans' hated it and wanted something else, it's not an intelligent conclusion to go "oh, yeah, let's do what they want then..." - just deal with the fact that you have new fans now, who are different to the old ones, or ones which still like what you do. And the other ones, who now dislike you, are on a different page.

But changing what you do to please anybody but yourself, is always stupid.

The 'best possible music' is the music that pleases you - the artist, the most. And nothing else. If everybody else hates it, oh well. Much better to create something the majority hate but you as the artist LOOOOVE, than to create something you think is okay or just 'good' but the majority love. Nobody else matters. People liking your stuff is a bonus not a must.

To put it in perspective, Eminem admitted Dr Dre showed him how to slow down on tracks so that he is audible. If he went Eminembase style he'd be a fucking Twista and look where Twista is at now? Very few people check that out consistently coz when they cant hear what you gotta say, why even listen to you. He had Relapse 2 and he could have released it, why not? Coz it wasnt appropriate for the majority of his fans (fuck TRshady purists 90 % of Eminem fans were sick of those accents before Refill even dropped).

When did I say an artist should create incomprehensible music? first of all, I didn't even mention fast rapping so I have no idea what you're talking about. And you've never heard me rap or say how I'd rap, so there is no 'Eminembase style'. Secondly, you've taken my examples literally as the whole point, which is silly. Those examples are things IIII would do. Not things I think every artist or anybody who wants to be a great artist should definitely do.

As it depends on your personality and aims. The point of those examples was to highlight my point about there being no rules and just to display some abstract possibilities outside of straightforward point scoring or basic subject-matter. But they're things I'd perhaps do, and just examples, to make a point. So take Eminem out of the equation, and the speed of the rapping has nothing to do with it.

And when did I also say it shouldn't be audible, or imply that it shouldn't be there's no point in it if you can't understand it. Eminem's biggest strength is his clarity and emphasis. And I'd do exactly the same, and I said take everything to the extreme, so why would I want some mumbled / garbled nonsense? I hate Twista too. I'd want utter clarity and audible depth, crisp and loud.

[Devil'sAdvocate]

in his prime,he was the best at everything.

now its like,hes half his old self with the skill,sometimes less.

[momentsgolden]

Well, for me... fast rapping, accents and "shouting" are one in the same thing. They are how he communicates his music to his audience. If it appeared as if i mis-interpreted you on that i apologize. Was just tryna make a point- consider you audience in how you execute your art so as to maximise the impact of your message.

[Man1x]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, the state of the music industry has muffled creativity. That's why IF you want your music to be heard you must have a balance between innovation and marketability.

[cityfan31]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, the state of the music industry has muffled creativity. That's why IF you want your music to be heard you must have a balance between innovation and marketability.

You've hit the nail on the head.

[A42491563]

.

When Eminem pleases himself, we get The Slim Shady LP and The Marshall Mathers LP, which are cohesive, artistic, daring, memorable pieces of work. When Eminem tries to please others, we get Encore and Recovery, which are muddled, confused and sometimes embarrassing.

Em Base, I usually agree with most of what you have to say but with this statement I completely disagree. I agree that SS LP and MM LP are a cohesive, artistic, daring, and memorable pieces of work. But putting Encore and Recovery in the same category, is probably the worst thing I've ever read from you. The muddled, confused, and sometimes embarrasing assessment I completely agree with Encore. Everything you said about Encore, I cannot say about Recovery. Recovery seemed more like a passionate and motivational piece of work that put himself back at the top of the music industry. I have finally come to the conclusion that Recovery is not his best album but more like my favorite album from Eminem. Another thing I'm surprised you left out is The Eminem Show, which I now believe is his best album. You mentioned that he pleased himself making SS LP and MM LP but left out TES. I would also put TES in the same category of his first 2 albums.

[Mr Change]

Never compare Recovery, NO, never compare ANY other Eminem album to Encore

[EminemBase]

.

When Eminem pleases himself, we get The Slim Shady LP and The Marshall Mathers LP, which are cohesive, artistic, daring, memorable pieces of work. When Eminem tries to please others, we get Encore and Recovery, which are muddled, confused and sometimes embarrassing.

Em Base, I usually agree with most of what you have to say but with this statement I completely disagree. I agree that SS LP and MM LP are a cohesive, artistic, daring, and memorable pieces of work. But putting Encore and Recovery in the same category, is probably the worst thing I've ever read from you. The muddled, confused, and sometimes embarrasing assessment I completely agree with Encore. Everything you said about Encore, I cannot say about Recovery.

Oh my god. You've done what everybody who ever quotes me and misunderstands me on this site always does. Stop taking everything so completely plainly literally!

When I say, when he's confused we get Encore or Recovery. That doesn't mean, Encore = Recovery or that they're in the same category as final pieces of work, or rated the same. It means they're both the product of confusion. On both albums he was confused and tried to please people other than himself, that's just obvious.

It's not even a case of taking me literally actually, as I wasn't being metaphorical there, you just misread / misunderstood what I said completely. Or... took what you want from it and made a new point out of it. At no point did I rate either album in my sentence, or say how either compares to one another critically. So broadly saying I put them in the same category and implying I'm saying Recovery is as shit as Encore is totally wrong. I didn't.

I consider Recovery a 4/5 star album. And I like it a lot. So try asking my opinion before jumping to rash conclusions, or read my other posts. Both are confused messes, to a large extent. Even though Recovery has a consistent lyrical standard and focused subject-matter, and some concepts... that doesn't obliterate the fact that desperate ploys to be liked were taken, and Em clearly took gigantic influence from Blueprint III with it.

Either way, he used to lock in and create whatever he wanted to create for an album. With Recovery, he took a look at the rap game, got the hot producers and a few hot feature artists, started spitting puns and bragging lines like Jay and Wayne and quite clearly just tried to emulate the 'hot' elements of big mainstream rappers right now in his own way.

Again, I like Recovery, but you can't deny that. Now, Encore on the other hand, was still very much an Eminem album, it's just half and half. It's too split and the silliness undermines the seriousness, then you have his laziness and just plain disregard for his own art by putting shite like "Just Lose It" anywhere near an official album.

I think Encore is probably... 2.5/5 or 3/5 for me. As it's almost entirely split with half very good material and half shit material. Recovery isn't near as bad in CERTAIN aspects aka his lyricism, flows and focus but the fact he contradicted himself so quickly and compromised so much, so readily and so willingly just tried to replicate 'the now'... that's more embarrassing in a way. As at least on Encore he still didn't give a fuck, and was himself. And it was still Eminem music.

Both albums have high and low points. Overall, Recovery is a much better album but it's essentially just a collection of tracks. Due to their being too many cooks in the kitchen (producers) and it being over-produced, and badly so... it sounds disjointed, uneven and not like an album. There are no truly weak tracks, that's its revival, and a lot of Em's lyricism and flows overshadow the structural and production flaws.

[A42491563]

[/quote]

Oh my god. You've done what everybody who ever quotes me and misunderstands me on this site always does. Stop taking everything so completely plainly literally!

When I say, when he's confused we get Encore or Recovery. That doesn't mean, Encore = Recovery or that they're in the same category as final pieces of work, or rated the same. It means they're both the product of confusion. On both albums he was confused and tried to please people other than himself, that's just obvious.

It's not even a case of taking me literally actually, as I wasn't being metaphorical there, you just misread / misunderstood what I said completely. Or... took what you want from it and made a new point out of it. At no point did I rate either album in my sentence, or say how either compares to one another critically. So broadly saying I put them in the same category and implying I'm saying Recovery is as shit as Encore is totally wrong. I didn't.

I consider Recovery a 4/5 star album. And I like it a lot. So try asking my opinion before jumping to rash conclusions, or read my other posts. Both are confused messes, to a large extent. Even though Recovery has a consistent lyrical standard and focused subject-matter, and some concepts... that doesn't obliterate the fact that desperate ploys to be liked were taken, and Em clearly took gigantic influence from Blueprint III with it.

Either way, he used to lock in and create whatever he wanted to create for an album. With Recovery, he took a look at the rap game, got the hot producers and a few hot feature artists, started spitting puns and bragging lines like Jay and Wayne and quite clearly just tried to emulate the 'hot' elements of big mainstream rappers right now in his own way.

Again, I like Recovery, but you can't deny that. Now, Encore on the other hand, was still very much an Eminem album, it's just half and half. It's too split and the silliness undermines the seriousness, then you have his laziness and just plain disregard for his own art by putting shite like "Just Lose It" anywhere near an official album.

I think Encore is probably... 2.5/5 or 3/5 for me. As it's almost entirely split with half very good material and half shit material. Recovery isn't near as bad in CERTAIN aspects aka his lyricism, flows and focus but the fact he contradicted himself so quickly and compromised so much, so readily and so willingly just tried to replicate 'the now'... that's more embarrassing in a way. As at least on Encore he still didn't give a fuck, and was himself. And it was still Eminem music.

Both albums have high and low points. Overall, Recovery is a much better album but it's essentially just a collection of tracks. Due to their being too many cooks in the kitchen (producers) and it being over-produced, and badly so... it sounds disjointed, uneven and not like an album. There are no truly weak tracks, that's its revival, and a lot of Em's lyricism and flows overshadow the structural and production flaws.[/quote]



The thing is that I disagree with almost everything you have to say about Recovery. I always agree with how you rate Eminem's first 3 albums but not with Recovery. While you say that Recovery was the product of confusion, I believe otherwise. I feel like he had a goal when he was creating Recovery and went full force with it. I believe he knew exactly what he wanted to achieve when making that album.

I knew you weren't comparing Encore with Recovery or stating they are on the same level. But, I do believe putting Encore and Recovery in the same sentence is downgrading Recovery alot. You said that Encore and Recovery were albums he made under confusion which I totally disagree with. With Encore it seemed like he didn't know what style to stick with. Meaning that he had a few serious songs, and then joking around for most of the album. With Recovery, I don't really see the confusion there. He knew what the majority of people wanted to hear and gave the fans what they wanted.

I also noticed you say that he seemed like he was influenced with Blueprint III. The only similarities I could see is maybe the production on that album. I have seen you consistently bash the production on Recovery, which I know is all based on opinion. I personally love the production on Recovery. There were only maybe 1 or 2 beats I didn't like on there, everything else I really liked. What you consider to be: A collection of tracks, an uneven and disjoined album. I consider it to be the most complete album of his career.

The only thing I would agree with you is that it seemed like he took a look at the rap game, got the hot producers, and a few hot feature artists. While you consider everything I just said a bad thing, I don't see it the same way. Releasing Encore after an album like The Eminem Show was probably one of the worst decisions he's ever made. I also would say the same thing about him releasing an album like Relapse after being away for 4 years. Relapse was not a bad album, but it seems to me like he made it out of "confusion".

He hadn't released a solo album in almost 5 years, and Relapse was the most anticipated album of 2009 imo. It seemed like he created what he thought people wanted him to come back with. When he saw the reception Relapse got when he released it, I believe he was proven wrong. In general, Relapse was not the album people wanted to hear him come back with. Again, I'm not saying Relapse was a bad album, because I eventually found a way to enjoy it by rearranging songs from Relapse and Relapse-Refill.

One of the things I most wanted when I found out he was coming back was an album mostly produced by Dr. Dre. That is something I had always wanted, and it never happened in the past. I'm grateful that was able to happen. But after Relapse, I wanted to hear a completely different album. I didn't care if it was an Eminem produced album or getting other producers to try different things. I don't consider calling out to some of the hottest producers out right now a bad thing. If he released Recovery instead of Relapse in 2009, I really believe people wouldn't trash talk Recovery as much as they do.

In conclusion, I feel like he created Recovery the way he did because he eventually realized Relapse was not what most people wanted to hear. I do agree that it seems like he cares what people say now, unlike in the past when he had an "I don't give a fuck" attitude. But I really don't consider that a bad thing. It's obvious he cares about what his fans think, and I think that's a good thing since Recovery was almost exactly what I wanted to hear him come back with after he released something like Encore in 2004. He gave me an album I consider to be my favorite album of his, and I'm definitely grateful for it.

[A42491563]

This new guys name looks familiar.

I've been lurking around for awhile but decided recently to start giving my opinions on what other people post. But truthfully, I find it kind of pointless to just post to say that someone's name looks familiar. I would rather hear your opinion on what I posted, which is actually the longest thing I have posted since I've joined on here. Took me a long time to state everything that I wanted to say to EmBase.

[Man1x]

I'm taking EmBase's side on this. The tracks are definite uneven and Recovery is not cohesive. HTS is however a step in the right direction IMO. And Recovery is NOT anywhere close to the best produced or even best Eminem album. However, after bearing trams like Above the Law & the reunion I feel that his punchline game is improving, that he might go back to a sslp/mmlp delivery, and that he may go back to stories. I hope he just drops making punchline tracks altogether. And EmBase I checked put He'll of A Life by Kanye. The formate is verse 1/hook/instrumental/verse 2/alternate hook/hook/ instrumental/verse 3/hook/instrumental. I find yelawolf's Kill my nightmare more experimental, just my opinion. However, you did say even Kanye hasn't taken creativity in song structure to the max. He is still following a formula. And typing this gives more respect for YelaWolf, really starting to love this guy.