441Mania Best Music Album 1996-2011 #2?

[Sam.]

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[SliK]

I can only tell you what I have personally witnessed, through the actions of those around me in my community and peer groups as well as the reactions to the album on a worldwide scale. Before MBDTF, Kanye was all but written off. Even the president called him a Jackass. He was in rehab for alcohol abuse, his last album was 808s and Heartbreak and he was at the ass end of jokes and comments the world over. Recovery was selling through the roof, "Yay, Eminem is back!" and Kanye was just that asshole who ruined Taylor Swift's moment who put out a faggy autotune album and won't shut the fuck up on twitter.


Then Power dropped and the world opened their eyes. "Screams from the haters got a nice ring to it... I guess every super hero needs his theme music". I acknowledge that Power is no The Way I Am, but it was an epic, powerful piece with a solid message. A song that put Kanye back in the spotlight for positive reasons for the first time in a long time.

A couple of songs from WTT leaked and again, the world took notice.

By the time of his MTV special (which I haven't seen likes of which before or since) the world couldn't wait to see what he had to offer.

Then MBDTF leaks and it took about 3 days for the whole world to forget about Eminem, to forget about Taylor Swift, to forget about 808s and Heartbreak and about 3 seconds for the entire world to jump back on his dick. A worldwide reaction like that, over an album, is phenomenal. Recovery didn't even get the reaction that MBDTF received. And the two of them were in similar stages of their career. Rehab, "disappointing" last album, etc. Mark my words MBDTF will also win Album of the Year, a feat that no Eminem album and very few Hip Hop albums ever have. Though that is just speculation at this point, I think it is a safe bet.

You say Kanye is just making jokes about fishsticks and blah blah but those jokes have meaning behind them. You downplay the content of the album too much I feel, or miss the point of a lot of the songs/lines/concepts. As someone described earlier the songs an album as a whole has a far deeper meaning. He went from being a laughing stock to king of the world and the line "choking a southpark writer with a fishstick", while amusing, is his way of saying "people will love me again and hate that you made that episode". He didn't just say it to rhyme with pimpish and while he isn't close to being as lyrical as Eminem (I don't believe anyone is) that isn't the be-all and end-all. Nobody is as lyrical as Eminem, look at NWA and Public Enemy. Neither are particularly lyrical but the messages are there and that is why their work is considered in such high regard. Then you have SSLP and Relapse, two intensely lyrical albums but lacking (for the most part) any real content.

I'll only touch on production slightly as you know how top notch it is. Easily the best production on any album in the last decade. I rate it along side Da Chronic but that album is the fucking benchmark, so I wouldn't argue if someone thought it was slightly under it. I, however, do not. Production is extrmemy undervalued these days, Kanye has a way of expressing emotion and conveying a message through his music, not just the words he spits. It's like when listening to classical music, a certain chord can just tug your heart strings. Very few artists are this in tune with the listener and even fewer artists put in the immense level of detail Kanye has. Eminem fucked up a line on Stan and just left it there. To me that is lazy or careless and although the song is still an undeniable classic and admittedly more of a classic than anything on MBDTF, Kanye would never put anything out that was less than perfect and that is what he delivered with MBDTF.

I truly can't think of anyone that doesn't know what My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is. In fact, I can't think of anyone who doesn't love it and can't relate to some of it. It has the underdog feel, the heartbreak, the lonliness, the pain, the joy of turning your life around and the most honest an raw emotion I have heard since Kim (obviously totally different emotions and Kim can't be compared as a song to anything on MBDTF or any other album for that matter - but there is no denying that both albums are a powerhouse of emotion.
That's the reaction to the album an the immediate impact it had on the world. Obviously it has only been a year or less since it's release, so at this stage it's impossible to tell what lasting impact it will have, if any. All I can tell you is that it was labelled an instant classic for a reason. You might not like or agree with the fact that it is an unbelievable album but you are in the minority. Because the whole world can relate to "I'm so gifted at finding what I don't like the most... So I think it's time for us to have a toast. Let's have a toast to the douche bags..." and "You ain't perfect but you made life worth it... stick around, some real feelings might surface". They are concepts that he captures and portrays so vividly and honestly that I (and the rest of the world) couldn't help but stop and take notice.

[EminemBase]

^ I'm not in any sense downplaying the lyricism, I've already said that I think Kanye is UNDERRATED as a lyricist but the album isn't consistent or 'big' enough in themes, it's not close to as important as MMLP which is ten times as original.

As for saying the songs have deeper meanings, firstly, I am not missing the concepts okay. Not to shit on your bonfire but Kanye's ideas are not hard to understand. Whilst he's complex and innovative in production, his ideas rarely match that.

I very much understand everything he ever says, all the double-meanings and aside from that, these stories that people craft THEMSELVES that they say are the 'deeper meaning' and story ark of the album just like people did with Relapse and Recovery, are speculation. Not reality. Believe whatever you want about the material, but most of the ideas on MBTF are very basic.

There's no seriously innovative or strikingly original concepts or much which hasn't been said by others. The best concept is probably "Power" and he ruins some of that with petty talk, but the idea and the visual is brilliant. The moving picture was amazing, but that's one song and, Kanye didn't create that painting. The only striking thing about Kanye, and always has been, is his emotion / dedication and execution. It's the whole package that makes him the artist he is, and the commitment to visual etc. but his ideas themselves, are nothing special.

"Stan" alone is a greater piece of art than Kanye's entire discography. Kanye raps about himself as characters or characterizes himself in certain ways, and comments on things. With "Stan", Em BECOMES a character, fully and whole heartedly like an actor would. Even a song like "Who Knew" is more creative and original than anything on MBDTF.

It's not just about lyricism so don't just revert to saying it's not just that, I know that and I've repeated that several times to try and stop you resorting to it, yet you still do. It has to be a marriage of music and lyricism, and concepts.

And The Marshall Mathers LP is a masterpiece and an amazing blend of all those things. MBDTF is a great blend too, but not to the same degree.

The ideas are not that unique, the lyricism not close, the concepts not as good or as well executed. The only thing more striking, is the music. And just like Eminem's lyrics alone don't always make him better - Kanye's music alone doesn't always make him better. So aside from the backdrop, the sound and scope of the album, MMLP beats it in every category.

And the reaction and effect of MMLP was monumental. The effect of MBDTF was not / has not been monumental. It has an amazing critical reaction, but everybody is fawning over his production. The ideas are not being praised as revolutionary and neither are his lyrics or thoughts. Eminem's were. And in hip hop, ideas are more important than music.

I'm fully aware of the phoenix metaphor to his career and our world 'not liking people that are difference' and all of his theories and implications about the album. Don't treat me as if I'm a philistine to his themes, I'm very well versed in his very intention as I'm a big Kanye fan and have watched practically every one of his interviews, and before MBDTF came out I watched all the long ustream rambles etc. too. So I know everything he's intending with the album.

And it's still only the execution that makes it amazing. The ballerina scene in the movie is the best thing about the album, the way "Runaway" reaches a height in that segment. But the themes and ideas of the album are nothing new. Where as Eminem's themes and ideas, were.

Kanye's album has had nowhere near the same effect.

[SliK]

You can't seem to separate the two albums. I am talking about Kanye's album and what it means in it's own right and you keep comparing it to MMLP. I have stated time and time again MMLP is better and (in my opinion) nothing can compare to MMLP so of course it's easy to make MBDTF seem less than impressive when comparing it to the greatest hip hop album of all time. There, I said it. MMLP is the greatest hip hop album of all time.

Try to understand that I am only justifying it's position at #5 in the last 15 years. The only comparison I made between the two was the reaction people had to it that I was able to witness all around me. You say some great things about MBDTF, then play them down because MMLP is better. Does that mean The Eminem Show is crap too, because the reaction wasn't the same as MMLP or because it doesn't have Stan? Of course not, it's a near classic. Generally only considered a classic by Stans, I think songs like Drips, When the Music Stops and Say What You Say bring it down slightly. Only because of the guest spots though. But this is beside the point and I'm going off topic haha.

Out of interest, what position would you rank MBDTF in the last 15 years and of all time?

[EminemBase]

^ Yeah but it's hard not to compare them when you're saying that it had as much if not MORE effect on the genre and publicly than The Marshall Mathers LP. Which is just not true.

It may end up having more direct influence on other rappers actually as, Kanye is more like other rappers than Eminem was / is. So, Eminem doesn't neccesarily influence in the same way because what he does is so unique and particular to him.

Like, nobody was gonna try imitate his voice from MMLP, but... maybe his sort of, attitude and madness, and lyrical detail inspired and influenced. But the music of MBDTF will probably influence other producers and directions more.

But it has in no way had the same effect on the public or the generation. And I can't help but compare because the ideas of the albums are directly related to that. The ideas of MBDTF are not big or important enough TO have that effect, and they haven't. Only his music has.

Also, Kanye was not down and out in 2008 / 2009. That silly MTV incident means nothing to me and in the bigger scheme of things. Kanye west makes music, him going on stage at an awards show is meaningless and I couldn't care if he was a complete asshole or a complete saint. All that did was help his career, as more people talked about him and he became famous than ever before.

It didn't hurt, it helped. And it helped shape MBDTF and the attention helped. So he was in no way down and out and 808s & Heartbreak is a great album too and nothing to be ashamed of. And that was in no way a downfall or low point either. 808s was another high point on a continued climb of ambition, the production and direction of it was spectacular and the fact he had the balls to make such a left-turn at such a crucial point speaks volumes.

That was one of his proudest moments, not most shameful. And most of the critics liked it a lot too. Just because some cheesy bravado, wannabe gangsta rap fans think it's shit or pop or can't appreciate a true artist doesn't mean that it's bad.

And as for where I'd place MBDTF... I'm not sure. I think lists like this are too broad for my mind. I'd probably at least have to dwindle it down to 'most innovative' / 'most lyrical' of X-Y time period or something. I'm trying to judge it overall but it's hard because... certain albums like Black on Both Sides I think should be up there but...

But aside from the lyrical content, well it is musically great too but it wasn't huge or didn't mean that much to people really. And I think public appreciation and legacy should come into it. I dunno, I doubt MBDTF would be in my top 10 though. It's not even my favourite Kanye album, Graduation is. I think Graduation has better material and is more consistent.

MBDTF has some of my favourite Kanye material but I don't think it's the utter mind-blowing masterpiece everybody else seems to. Even when it came out I was like "yeah it's good, and the music is of course brilliant" but, I wasn't absolutely blown away. I was more blown away by Relapse to be honest. I'm much more impressed by lyrics and ideas and the lyrics of MBDTF are actually very nice, especially on "Dark Fantasy" and "Hell of Life", but still... I don't find it mesmerizing like critics seem to, and there are skippable moments for me.

But I appreciate the effort as a whole as his high point so far and the whole experience is masterful. And the ambition and dedication with the movie and visuals, impresses me much more than the music off the album to be honest. I love artists which reach way beyond anything everybody else has ever tried to do and just dive in head first and never stop trying to get better, and which want to flip everything on its head. And I felt that, with this album.

But, the ideas just don't match that ambition for the most part to me.

[I'mShady]

Oh my...Hey I can't be bothered by reading all this BUT look, ANYONE who thinks that MBDTF>MMLP, please get the fuck outta here...no seriously go and...just...go!...