Is this the reason some of the edge/attitude in Em's music

[Notalius]

as i was reading their conversation i was thinking about asking if we are still playing this inb4 game. i realised, maybe this is my time to get a point ... my dreams were shattered

[_Hawk_]

Obviously Eminem still has a spark of humour, but you have tip-toed around the actual formulation of his 'funny rhymes'. It is is easy to pick out one song from an album and say 'we can see his old-self here', but that is one song. Eminem has not captured his pre-relapse wit to compose a song and appear effortlessly humorous to the extent that you could believe it was an unwritten freestyle.

Perhaps this is to do with the way he writes his current music, or maybe it's because a lot of those ideas stemmed from drug-influence. At the moment he's like a sober rapper straining to appear high with his visualisations.

But you say 'effortlessly humorous' like that's his aim, he can't sound effortlessly humorous at the moment because he's rapping really loudly and harshly, so he's going to sound frantic and angry no matter what he's saying. He used to have a more relaxed, conversational approach and delivery, that's why he sounded like that. I'm not saying his recent lines are up to the standard of his old ones, but I believe style has a lot to do with it, and if he rapped like he did back then now, and wrote in a similar style, I believe he would sound pretty close.

His ideas are still sometimes funny, similar themes, but it's the way he's presenting them that is different; he's chopping down lines to puns, he's writing in a... 'laboured' way, as in, he's severing lines, and writing in bursts and segments.

The way he writes is different now. But he writes differently on every album. His lyricism on The Marshall Mathers LP was different to The Slim Shady LP. His writing style on The Eminem Show was different again, aside from his voice and flows changing, he changes his entire writing style almost every time, so I think that has a lot to do with it.

You couldn't be more wrong. The tracks he has released this year have all been done in a calm, smooth voice. The flow has been choppy at times, but it certainly isn't 'loud' or 'harsh'. He could easily sound effortlessly humorous in his 'Richard' or 'Our House' voice, but the content of his verses and the lyricism doesn't allow it. Why? Because it isn't effortless. IMHO, 'Here Comes the Weekend' is the most effortless verse Eminem has written for a while, but even then it is hardly free-flowing.

Furthermore a lot of his older albums have had tracks which would easily have worked on his previous releases. Who Knew could definitely have appeared on the SSLP, and likewise SDGAF would work on the MMLP. Square Dance would work on Encore, and 'Spend Some Time' would work on TES. It's the content of his raps that changes and his flow experimentation, but it's not his 'entire writing style', and his 'entire writing style' is just the day-to-day process he goes through of writing rhymes and recording them. If he finds a style he likes he might run with it and potentially focus on it for an album, but to me Who Knew happily sounds like his SSLP self which indicates an organic process of recording. I wouldn't call his current process organic at all. It appears that he is scrambling to test out different styles and writing techniques, and jumping between different voices. This year has been fairly uniform for Em, but it's clear he hasn't settled into a style, and his writing (going back to the subject at hand) is in no way as effortless as it could be.


I see, Embase, that you said 'plain introspective about his life isn't creative'. Again you couldn't be more wrong. I won't say why but I will say 3 titles. Stan. 97 Bonnie and Clyde. Kim.

Please retire and re-think your perception on Eminem's music, or perhaps your ability to word your thoughts cohesively. These three tracks are easily his most creative, and are introspective to multi-faceted degrees.

[CrashBand]

@Hawk.

First off, 'Who Knew' pretty much epitomizes MMLP

I see, Embase, that you said 'plain introspective about his life isn't creative'. Again you couldn't be more wrong. I won't say why but I will say 3 titles. Stan. 97 Bonnie and Clyde. Kim.

And unsure about you and this self ether.

Please tell me how 97 Bonnie and Clyde is a plain introspective song about his life.

You pretty much reiterated his point, lmao.

[kingmathers85]

^Ether ha

[StatQuo]

Obviously Eminem still has a spark of humour, but you have tip-toed around the actual formulation of his 'funny rhymes'. It is is easy to pick out one song from an album and say 'we can see his old-self here', but that is one song. Eminem has not captured his pre-relapse wit to compose a song and appear effortlessly humorous to the extent that you could believe it was an unwritten freestyle.

Perhaps this is to do with the way he writes his current music, or maybe it's because a lot of those ideas stemmed from drug-influence. At the moment he's like a sober rapper straining to appear high with his visualisations.

But you say 'effortlessly humorous' like that's his aim, he can't sound effortlessly humorous at the moment because he's rapping really loudly and harshly, so he's going to sound frantic and angry no matter what he's saying. He used to have a more relaxed, conversational approach and delivery, that's why he sounded like that. I'm not saying his recent lines are up to the standard of his old ones, but I believe style has a lot to do with it, and if he rapped like he did back then now, and wrote in a similar style, I believe he would sound pretty close.

His ideas are still sometimes funny, similar themes, but it's the way he's presenting them that is different; he's chopping down lines to puns, he's writing in a... 'laboured' way, as in, he's severing lines, and writing in bursts and segments.

The way he writes is different now. But he writes differently on every album. His lyricism on The Marshall Mathers LP was different to The Slim Shady LP. His writing style on The Eminem Show was different again, aside from his voice and flows changing, he changes his entire writing style almost every time, so I think that has a lot to do with it.

You couldn't be more wrong. The tracks he has released this year have all been done in a calm, smooth voice. The flow has been choppy at times, but it certainly isn't 'loud' or 'harsh'. He could easily sound effortlessly humorous in his 'Richard' or 'Our House' voice, but the content of his verses and the lyricism doesn't allow it. Why? Because it isn't effortless. IMHO, 'Here Comes the Weekend' is the most effortless verse Eminem has written for a while, but even then it is hardly free-flowing.

Furthermore a lot of his older albums have had tracks which would easily have worked on his previous releases. Who Knew could definitely have appeared on the SSLP, and likewise SDGAF would work on the MMLP. Square Dance would work on Encore, and 'Spend Some Time' would work on TES. It's the content of his raps that changes and his flow experimentation, but it's not his 'entire writing style', and his 'entire writing style' is just the day-to-day process he goes through of writing rhymes and recording them. If he finds a style he likes he might run with it and potentially focus on it for an album, but to me Who Knew happily sounds like his SSLP self which indicates an organic process of recording. I wouldn't call his current process organic at all. It appears that he is scrambling to test out different styles and writing techniques, and jumping between different voices. This year has been fairly uniform for Em, but it's clear he hasn't settled into a style, and his writing (going back to the subject at hand) is in no way as effortless as it could be.


I see, Embase, that you said 'plain introspective about his life isn't creative'. Again you couldn't be more wrong. I won't say why but I will say 3 titles. Stan. 97 Bonnie and Clyde. Kim.

Please retire and re-think your perception on Eminem's music, or perhaps your ability to word your thoughts cohesively. These three tracks are easily his most creative, and are introspective to multi-faceted degrees.

[StatQuo]

What makes writting about serial killing and thoughts of rape, murder, punchlines about violance like on Relapse creative? but writting about say how you grew up poor, how it affected you, how hard it was, how it felt having no money, being broke non creative?


What you saying is creative is just subjective and your opinion EminemBase to you If I Had or Like Toy Soldiers may not be creative but to others they are creative where as to you Underground or 3 AM may be creative but to others they are non creative songs just about murder and serial killing



Writting about your life and people relating is creativity in it self otherwise every rapper who made introspective music would be popular

[StatQuo]

And you ignored the 2pac point too EminemBase Eminem said 2pac was his influence for his introspective style so if Eminem you claim thinks songs like Hailies Song, Mockingbird, Like Toy Soldiers, Sing For The Moment, We As Americans are non creative and you claim his fave songs are what you consider creative then why did Eminem grow up listening to and idolozing 2pac who made those kinda songs about life or self loathing as you negativley put it? why would someone listen to 2pac as a teenager and be influenced by him if he himself doesn't like songs like that?


2pac is just 1 example but Eminem also grew up listening to other artists that made similar songs to Em's introspective music so why would he when he fell in love with Hip Hop listen to these Artists he could relate that made music you claim is self loathing or non creative? it doesn't make sense what you saying



It's all opinion but the concerte fact is you can't speak as if you know Eminem's taste in music when the facts about who he grew up listening to, the fact he has made songs like Rock Bottom based on his life struggles from his very first album, the fact he himself in interviews has said he listens to his own music like THe Eminem Show and is proud of it proves what you saying doesn't add up EminemBase


I am willing to bet you EminemBase his next album which will be out either this year or 2013 is going to be a predominantly introspective album but this time with actually great production like The Eminem Show had addressing the mistake on Recovery of not so great production and i gurantee you it will be a huge success

[_Hawk_]

@Hawk.

First off, 'Who Knew' pretty much epitomizes MMLP

I see, Embase, that you said 'plain introspective about his life isn't creative'. Again you couldn't be more wrong. I won't say why but I will say 3 titles. Stan. 97 Bonnie and Clyde. Kim.

And unsure about you and this self ether.

Please tell me how 97 Bonnie and Clyde is a plain introspective song about his life.

You pretty much reiterated his point, lmao.

How isn't it? None of his songs are 'plain introspective'. All have some form of creativity added into the mix, whether through similies and metaphors a la Rock Bottom, or generic dreaming as we see in 'If I Had'. Eminem is not an entirely truthful person. The facts are in his songs, but he glosses them over and makes them more interesting. Mockingbird is song in a lullaby. It's creative and interesting. He's no just chosen a beat and rapped his thoughts. He's made it into poetry.

In the same vain, 97 B&C is an introspective look into his arguments with Kim, his very thoughts, and his love for his daughter, and Kim almost represents an alternative reality. He might have killed her if he didn't go into the booth. Stan as well is a take on his position with his stalker-fans.

The point I am making is that no track is just 'plain introspective'. GTC perhaps, but then again it's composed in such an interesting way that it is creative. So yes, plain introspective songs which only focus on his life and personal thoughts are perhaps some of his most creative works.

It really depends on your interpretation of 'plain' introspective. I took it to refer to tracks which solely focus on his life and personal issues.

[EminemBase]

You couldn't be more wrong. The tracks he has released this year have all been done in a calm, smooth voice. The flow has been choppy at times, but it certainly isn't 'loud' or 'harsh'. He could easily sound effortlessly humorous in his 'Richard' or 'Our House' voice, but the content of his verses and the lyricism doesn't allow it. Why? Because it isn't effortless. IMHO, 'Here Comes the Weekend' is the most effortless verse Eminem has written for a while, but even then it is hardly free-flowing.

I'm pretty sure I could be more wrong. I could say that Eminem is a 400 pound black woman who sings about rabbits, that would be way more wrong.

And, I think he does sound effortlessly humorous on "Richard". Just because he doesn't to you doesn't mean he doesn't full stop. The mentioning of Ike in that way was very MMLP-ish and I thought his natural wit was smooth and flowing in that verse.

Furthermore a lot of his older albums have had tracks which would easily have worked on his previous releases. Who Knew could definitely have appeared on the SSLP, and likewise SDGAF would work on the MMLP. Square Dance would work on Encore, and 'Spend Some Time' would work on TES. It's the content of his raps that changes and his flow experimentation, but it's not his 'entire writing style'

Yeah, there's tracks that would 'work' but not work completely. His writing and style on The Slim Shady LP is not like The Marshall Mathers LP. On The Marshall Mathers LP he's more abrasive, more personal, and the way he wrote his lyrics, changed.

Obviously you're gonna get some tracks that could still work or sound similarish because he goes through that transition phase, and you can hear him settle in to the new styles more the later in to the recording process the track was made. I'd say "Drug Ballad" is the most SSLP-ish.

You named a few tracks but for the most part you're not right. "The Way I Am" would sound bizarre on The Slim Shady LP, as would "Bitch Please II"; there are tracks that would, as it's the same guy, but you'd still notice the difference, and his writing still changes.

I see, Embase, that you said 'plain introspective about his life isn't creative'. Again you couldn't be more wrong. I won't say why but I will say 3 titles. Stan. 97 Bonnie and Clyde. Kim.

Clearly you don't read or understand what I say fully, as I've said many times that those three songs are probably his three most creatively brilliant.

None of them are plain introspection. The tracks being ABOUT some kind of personal issue doesn't make it introspection. On "97 Bonnie and Clyde", you hear him driving his wife who he's just killed to dump her in a lake, whilst he explains away to his daughter in baby talk, revealing violent details to the listener, ironically, hilariously and through dialogue. That is not introspection; that's a concept. Eminem didn't really kill Kim, that never happened, therefore it's a work of fiction, therefore more creative than simply saying how he feels about his relationship with Kim; which is what plain introspection would be in that case. He took his feelings, and he got creative.

That's why I said 'plain' introspection, aka just talking about issues, just saying how he feels about things, and yes he does have songs like that, such as "Hailie's Song", "Mockingbird", they have little concepts within the hooks but he's just talking about his life, to the listener

That's not creative because he's simply revealing his thoughts, he's not crafting a concept or working within a storyline, it's not original.

"Stan", introspective? what planet are you from. It's a storytelling track about a crazed fan writing letters to him, it's more of a social commentary track and response to critics, it's a story, the lyrics are the dialogue, it has a plot, it has themes, that's creative; that's a concept.

Please retire and re-think your perception on Eminem's music, or perhaps your ability to word your thoughts cohesively. These three tracks are easily his most creative, and are introspective to multi-faceted degrees.

Retire from what? I don't get paid to sit and ether douches on forums like you, I wish I did though, it'd be easy money. Why don't you hop off my thingy, you seem obsessed with me, Stan.

I've said again and again Em is at his best to me when he writes conceptually, and that's what I want to hear more of. All of the songs you mentioned are conceptual masterpieces, none of them are 'plain introspection', they're high-concepts, all of them.

[_Hawk_]

The point I made at the beginning was a natural process through Eminem's early music to show changes in style and technique which hasn't transcended in his recent music. You missed this completely. Perhaps it's your blinkered vision, but you didn't recognise that I was pointing out a 'few' tracks that would work from the SSLP on the MMLP (et al), whereas this isn't the case with any of his music post-recovery. He's jumped between styles, almost to try and please his fans, but perhaps because he's struggling to reignite the natural process he used to have for writing and composing his music effortlessly.
Obviously this is subjective, but seen in a broad context it's negligible whether you think Richard works. This effortlessness has been missing and it's hard to listen to a rap when it sounds like the artist is trying too hard to be something he isn't, or to adopt a style that doesn't suit him.

Look at the tracks he made at the times of his albums, and it's clear that his 'entire writing style' doesn't change. Without Me and TRS are interchangeable. As I said, his albums are the best tracks that fit together from the period in which he is making an album. Some tracks are made for the album, but others just appear and work as Eminem himself works. The very nature of his albums changes, but even then there will be a set of tracks that would work on his previous albums. I don;t think WTP, or We Made You would fit on any of his previous albums, yet they work on themes he has addressed before. Here his writing has definitely changed (not evolved), but ultimately it's the style that changes. His style on the SSLP was related to personal issues and his want to just put his thoughts down on a record, whereas the MMLP was reactionary. His writing here did evolve to adopt these changes, but it didn't explicitly change. He was still as effortlessly funny, and still in the studio working on similar concepts.

You say: "That's why I said 'plain' introspection, aka just talking about issues, just saying how he feels about things, and yes he does have songs like that, such as "Hailie's Song", "Mockingbird", they have little concepts within the hooks but he's just talking about his life, to the listener" but these tracks do have concepts. The former was written for his daughter, and the latter takes the form of a lullaby. I haven't heard another rapper do this before Eminem. It's creative. This is the point I made above but you missed: no Eminem track is just plainly introspective. There are styles and creative methods he employs to note down his thoughts. Why rap about how much you hate your wife at a point in time when the listener can infer it from a conceptual track like '97 B&C? They are introspective on similar levels. Take the facts out of Hailies song and it is: 'he loves her and he's happy he has her back in his life. We can infer the effects of his gun charges etc'. With '97 B&C we can infer that 'he loves her and at that point in time hates kim and wishes to kill her.' How else would an eminem of this period have translated these two contradictory emotions? As a plain rap? If it was a plain rap it wouldn't be a lullaby, and therefore Mockingbird is as creative as 97 B&C is introspective, for if the latter was a plain rap it would literally consist of 'Kim is a bitch, i love hailie so much'. It's difficult, it's awkward. There are only certain ways you can really pull of such a juxtaposition of emotions, and Eminem captures it perfectly. it's as introspective as you need it to be.

Of course Stan is introspective! It's a self exclamation of Eminem's thoughts and feelings. His fan mail was crazy after the SSLP and he wanted his audience to appreciate how he couldn't respond to it all. This is the point I'm making: your focus on Eminem being introspective is so ambiguously narrow that you fail to appreciate the artistic ways he is using tracks, like Kim and Stan, to represent his thoughts and feelings in ways open to interpretation, but with clear underpinning values. In the former his anger, and the latter his concerns.
With your logic 'The Way I Am' contains plain introspection as it focuses on his personal issues which he is addressing. Yet surely it's just as creative as Mockingbird? The anger that underpins it is like the love that underpins Mockingbird. It contains a lot more analysis of his personal strifes and his position in the rap game, but it's still completely related to personal matters. It works beautifully and it is clearly one of his most well known raps. MMLP would be naked without it.

You aren't completely wrong with your views on introspection, but you aren't right. Eminem is a genius for being able to translate his life and thoughts into creative songs which are brilliantly artistic and fascinating to listen to. If he didn't do this with every personal track, to varying degrees, he wouldn't have captured such an audience. The genius of the SSLP was the fact that listeners went in thinking it would be 'My Name is' but came out realising that this guy is here to stay. And my god does he have some fascinating ways of translating his thoughts.

For the record, to retire can simply mean to withdraw for rest or rethinking. I thought this was obvious.