Cole: I might not be as successful as Im now if I was black

[CrashBand]

This is a very good point, I mean I don't go to a music store and go "Oh, he's black? I'mma cop that shit" so it'd be stupid to think whites would pull the same thing in 2013.

Most racism isn't people consciously thinking "oh, he's black, I'm not gonna do X with him".

lol.

[EminemBase]

^ Has there been any actual... like studies or surveys or something, or is that just a pure assumption?

Also... I dunno, maybe some people are more retarded then, I know people constantly have this "oh I need to relate man" issue going on, I just don't, I don't need to relate to what the rapper is saying at all, so race or culture makes absolutely zero difference to me.

But catchiness and talent are the biggest factors. Which is why there is only one huge white rapper and he's talented as fuck, and people who say he would be average or small if he was black are absolutely retarded if they seriously think that @ SSLP-MMLP-TES / his talent in general.

Lil Wayne is more popular than Asher Roth. Where's the explanation there?... I mean, there's a SHIT LOAD of white youths, especially college kids, who listen to rap... so why is Asher Roth not the biggest shit on planet Earth next to Em right now?... because his music isn't as catchy, he doesn't have as many melodies or cover as broad as themes as Lil Wayne does: those are the realities.

So when you have examples like that, it's clear race has very little to do with success in rap.

Especially when you then have rappers like Soulja Boy (also more famed / more hits than Asher and many actual talented white rappers) who are bigger and more known lmao, it's just a very retarded argument: whether you're talented or not - if you can make music, good or bad, which sticks in people's heads and appeals to senses of rhythm... on any level: you will make hits.

[EminemBase]

@CrashBand - how do you explain Soulja Boy having more hits than {insert super talented white rapper} then? I mean, pull a good underground white rapper out for conversational purposes... how do you explain Soulja Boy being more famed, blowing up more and being more known... presuming you think Soulja Boy is terrible at rapping and not very talented at all in any department of lyricism or technique...

If it is at all influenced by race... considering there are so many more white people, and white fans... how would this happen. This seems to be at complete odds with what you're implying?

[CrashBand]

It's an anecdote/assumption. I haven't seen studies, but I'd bet my mortgage that it's the case.

Firstly, we have to be looking purely at proportions, as you've alluded to, there is obviously a lot more white people in the US/UK, so yes, Jay-Z would have more white fans, but that's a useless exercise.

If you take catchiness out of the equation, and just look at quality. Rappers like The Roots, Common, MF Doom have a much lower proportion of white fans than rappers like Slug, Eyedea, Aesop Rock, Sadistik.

Then if we chuck in catchiness (again there isn't actual evidence to back this up), but I'd say rappers like Macklemore have a much lower proportion of black fans than rappers like Lil Wayne and Nicki Minaj.

Yes, it's not white people consciously saying they won't listen to black rappers, but it's certainly not a mere coincidence either. Race definitely seems to be a factor.

[CrashBand]

^just saw the question now, but think my above post kind of covers that.

Soulja Boy sells from catchiness/marketability.

And I don't think it's the race is the only factor for Macklemore selling well & someone like J. Cole selling not-as-well.

[EminemBase]

^ Huh... even though J. Cole sold much more... ?

The Heist has sold nearly a million copies in the US since it's release, but started off with 78k first week which I think you'll agree... is hardly splitting the world in two.

J. Cole has sold about 600k but started out selling over 200k in his first week...

The Heist has gotten overwhelmingly positive reactions from fans and critics, considered to be a bit of a musical jump forward, and Macklemore is covering broad societal topics and trying to push it...

J. Cole is rapping about standard rapper shit in a standard rapper shit way...

J. Cole started off much better, then waned.

Do you think PERHAPS, it may be due to the fact Macklemore is actually doing something more valid artistically and music than J. Cole is - hence why his buzz is picking up and why J. Cole's is dying down and has been consistently lukewarm... do you think PERHAPS it's Macklemore's themes with those recent big singles which are a little left-field and daring which is helping?

As apposed to the colour of either of their skin...

God, what a ridiculous argument. J. Cole is a fucking idiot.

[CrashBand]

Oh did he? lol.

[JamaicanPattlez]

This is a very good point, I mean I don't go to a music store and go "Oh, he's black? I'mma cop that shit" so it'd be stupid to think whites would pull the same thing in 2013.

Most racism isn't people consciously thinking "oh, he's black, I'm not gonna do X with him".

lol.

You don't know that for sure though. That's assuming you'd know how a racist would think. I'm just saying, to ME I don't give a fuck if a rapper's white, am I looking at his face when I'm listening to his music? No. So it shouldn't matter.

[CrashBand]

dafuq.

You just praised him for saying most people don't think like that.

Then when I said, I know most people don't think like that, but that isn't the racism we see in society anyway, you said I can't know how people think

[CrashBand]

@Base.

I do agree with you that it's stupid for a black rapper to think if they were white they'd suddenly sell millions, that's retarded. And of course black rappers who are either good or catchy or both can sell well.

But I think race is definitely a factor in listener demographics.

[EminemBase]

@ JamaicanPattlez And it doesn't matter.

Nobody truly fucking cares, no matter what they say either way.

If something is really fucking good and catchy, people will listen to it.

A lot of underground rappers are really fucking good, but not in the slightest bit catchy - they have very dense flows and very abrasive or simply dull music and a lack of memorable hooks. Simple as that.

And then you have a lot of mainstream rappers who are really fucking catchy, but not in the slightest bit good, yet get huge - black... and I was going to say white, but actually... nope; in fact black rappers seem to have an easier time due to the auto-acceptance of it's 'their music', a lot of profoundly dumb shit gets huge, which I doubt would be given a pass or would be given harsher criticism if it was a white rapper.

Race has nothing to do with capturing somebody's imagination and striking a musical chord with them - if you can do those things or at least the 2nd thing - you will win in music, period.

And there's endless examples of gigantic black artists in all genres, even in times where genuine racism was rampant - where that is the case. People don't CARE, even if somebody was racist - it goes out the fucking window when talent / music especially comes in to play. Because racism is a construct of all kinds of societal bullshit and paranoia and ignorance and on and on... but talent hits straight @ the gold spot, any irrational brick walls which are in place go out the window. Race is not a relevant factor in discussing talent.

[EminemBase]

@CrashBand - Well, I don't man.

I think that you can't HELP but like what you like and music is based on internal appreciation / emotion of rhythm and timing and all sorts of things that you can't outthink or decide on...

Therefore... if something is truly brilliant, musically, OR truly catchy... you can't HELP but feel that, you feel the internal reaction, it sticks with you, it grabs your attention.

Any silly societal constructs or traditions or guards a person may have up I think totally... they're not relevant, because music strikes between the eyes, it bypasses all of that.

I bet there's even white racists who listen to Jay-Z and LOVE him.

True racists are such a minority that I don't think they're worth even bringing in to the conversation; and then... as for the rest of us normal people... it doesn't enter our brains, it's not even a factor of why we like someone or not... so how is it relevant.

And then beyond all that - music bypasses everything. You can't choose what you like. You just like it or not, you can't decide based on race. Talent bypasses everything, you can't deny how you feel about something, you can deny it to other people but people who love Jay-Z will listen to and buy Jay-Z... black, or white. People who love Eminem - will buy and listen to Eminem, black, or white - the majority of both their fans are white, because the US is primarily white, that's just statistics... but if the music is good, or at least catchy... it will work and people of all kinds will listen to you.

If Eminem's success had nothing to do with him being white, or very little (next to none IMO), then you should at least expect him to be the CATCHIEST rapper ever right? Since, if what I am suggesting is true... being good simply isn't enough and if race doesn't effect it, then he should be one of the catchiest ever... and seriously - name a rapper who's made catchier rhymes and songs than "Without Me". Melody is the first and foremost primary, '#1 and most important reason for musical success. The biggest, are the most melodic.

2Pac was huge, with people all over the world. Because he has very melodic raps... he was talking about ''the blackest shit'' a rapper could talk about most of the time... it has no effect on people's love for what they hear. We all (as in, us rap fans) love to analyze lyrics and look for good rhymes and love good concepts, but you can't deny what you feel for good melody, that needs to be there in some sense, and that's why 2Pac, Biggie, Eminem, and any other huge rapper - black, white, shit or great - is big. That is the 90% factor that can never be removed.

[JamaicanPattlez]

@ JamaicanPattlez And it doesn't matter.

Nobody truly fucking cares, no matter what they say either way.

If something is really fucking good and catchy, people will listen to it.

A lot of underground rappers are really fucking good, but not in the slightest bit catchy - they have very dense flows and very abrasive or simply dull music and a lack of memorable hooks. Simple as that.

And then you have a lot of mainstream rappers who are really fucking catchy, but not in the slightest bit good, yet get huge - black... and I was going to say white, but actually... nope; in fact black rappers seem to have an easier time due to the auto-acceptance of it's 'their music', a lot of profoundly dumb shit gets huge, which I doubt would be given a pass or would be given harsher criticism if it was a white rapper.

Race has nothing to do with capturing somebody's imagination and striking a musical chord with them - if you can do those things or at least the 2nd thing - you will win in music, period.

And there's endless examples of gigantic black artists in all genres, even in times where genuine racism was rampant - where that is the case. People don't CARE, even if somebody was racist - it goes out the fucking window when talent / music especially comes in to play. Because racism is a construct of all kinds of societal bullshit and paranoia and ignorance and on and on... but talent hits straight @ the gold spot, any irrational brick walls which are in place go out the window. Race is not a relevant factor in discussing talent.

My argument has always been "Michael Jackson was black, did white people rush out to the stores to buy Thriller cause it's a black man making music?" No. It's the music that talks.

[CrashBand]

I agree that if it's truly brilliant or truly catchy it will sell well, regardless of colour. But race is still a factor for listener demographics.

I just think you're kidding yourself if you think 2Pac, Biggie and Jay-Z have a similar proportion of white listeners as Eminem........and that's just a coincidence.

Same can be said for up and coming, high-selling artists, like comparing Kendrick with Macklemore.

--

I agree with you that race most probably plays a part in shit/corny black rappers not being seen as ridiculous as someone like Vanilla Ice, even if they are just as ridiculous and playing to the stereotype of hip-hop just as much.