JAY-Z ranks his own albums (says he has 4 classics)

[EminemBase]

but if you believe what you've just made is nowhere near your best... why put it out. That's so unambitious.

Even if it's not as good, you at least should think it's close, or what's the point.

What a dumb thing to say

Why is it a dumb thing to say?

[EminemBase]

but seriously I like how he has no delusions about mchg and the candidness about its ranking in his discog. he's still underrating ag though and vol 1 should be 5th

Lol okay. More like 1 classic.

which one?

I agree. American Gangster is 4th, right after his classics.

Are you on about Em with the 3 classics?

I dunno which two (presumably Relapse and Recovery?) you mean are doo doo.

I would say he's released 3 classics (2 universally recognized, 1 fan-anointed:TES), 1 bad/doo doo(Encore), 1 great (Relapse), 1 good (Recovery) and 1 great (MMLP2).

Nigga that's two greats

Yeah I meant it like... one at a time narrative description of each like 'this one's dope, dope, this one is shit' etc. not like - absolutist - like ONE great, and no more.

[classthe_king]

but if you believe what you've just made is nowhere near your best... why put it out. That's so unambitious.

Even if it's not as good, you at least should think it's close, or what's the point.

What a dumb thing to say

Why is it a dumb thing to say?

Because it's completely unrealistic to expect someone to be able to put out their best album every time they release a new album, especially when they're 15 years into their career. Sometimes it becomes impossible to match the hunger and creativity you had when you were younger once you're old and rich.

Also when you've been working on your own music for so long you lose the ability to judge it objectively. I've never made full albums but I've even seen this happen to me when I work on one song for too long. You don't realize until you put it out and take a break from listening and get responses do you realize wow this part was actually wack, etc. You can see this where Jay-Z said sunshine ruined the whole album. Of course he didn't think that at the time…

Plus with that logic most artists discographies wouldn't be more than 1-2 albums. Nas might as well have just retired after Illmatic.

[SG.]

Because it's completely unrealistic to expect someone to be able to put out their best album every time they release a new album, especially when they're 15 years into their career. Sometimes it becomes impossible to match the hunger and creativity you had when you were younger once you're old and rich.

Also when you've been working on your own music for so long you lose the ability to judge it objectively. I've never made full albums but I've even seen this happen to me when I work on one song for too long. You don't realize until you put it out and take a break from listening and get responses do you realize wow this part was actually wack, etc. You can see this where Jay-Z said sunshine ruined the whole album. Of course he didn't think that at the time…

Plus with that logic most artists discographies wouldn't be more than 1-2 albums. Nas might as well have just retired after Illmatic.

But shouldn't you still aim to make your best album? I would hope Jay's process wasn't "I'm going to do a fifth of my best today." You have to strive for that creativity, to not let to fall by the wayside when it's easy to do so. That's not an impossibility. That's laziness.

As for realising something is wack, surely you shouldn't realise it 5 months after you put it out. If you do, you certainly don't publicise it. He even said this sort of thing in July at the time of release. If somebody asks you if your new album's a classic, you can simply say "I don't know yet" or whatever. You don't have to put yourself on the back foot from the get-go.

[classthe_king]

Because it's completely unrealistic to expect someone to be able to put out their best album every time they release a new album, especially when they're 15 years into their career. Sometimes it becomes impossible to match the hunger and creativity you had when you were younger once you're old and rich.

Also when you've been working on your own music for so long you lose the ability to judge it objectively. I've never made full albums but I've even seen this happen to me when I work on one song for too long. You don't realize until you put it out and take a break from listening and get responses do you realize wow this part was actually wack, etc. You can see this where Jay-Z said sunshine ruined the whole album. Of course he didn't think that at the time…

Plus with that logic most artists discographies wouldn't be more than 1-2 albums. Nas might as well have just retired after Illmatic.

But shouldn't you still aim to make your best album? I would hope Jay's process wasn't "I'm going to do a fifth of my best today." You have to strive for that creativity, to not let to fall by the wayside when it's easy to do so. That's not an impossibility. That's laziness.

As for realising something is wack, surely you shouldn't realise it 5 months after you put it out. If you do, you certainly don't publicise it. He even said this sort of thing in July at the time of release. If somebody asks you if your new album's a classic, you can simply say "I don't know yet" or whatever. You don't have to put yourself on the back foot from the get-go.

Do you honestly think that every rapper thinks their newest album is their best album? Because that's delusional. Like I said, it's hard to objectively judge the quality of your own music while you're making it. Do you honestly think when Eminem made Encore and Relapse and Recovery he thought that it was as good as his previous albums or is it only laziness if it's Jay?

No...It Was Written was on the same level. I actually prefer IWW over Illmatic. Nas did exactly what EminemBase said. He made an album that he believed to be with his best work.

And then he made I Am… and Nastradamus.

[EminemBase]

Because it's completely unrealistic to expect someone to be able to put out their best album every time they release a new album, especially when they're 15 years into their career. Sometimes it becomes impossible to match the hunger and creativity you had when you were younger once you're old and rich.

Also when you've been working on your own music for so long you lose the ability to judge it objectively. I've never made full albums but I've even seen this happen to me when I work on one song for too long. You don't realize until you put it out and take a break from listening and get responses do you realize wow this part was actually wack, etc. You can see this where Jay-Z said sunshine ruined the whole album. Of course he didn't think that at the time…

Plus with that logic most artists discographies wouldn't be more than 1-2 albums. Nas might as well have just retired after Illmatic.

But it's not the expectation that each new album should be better.

But rather that the artist themselves at least feels it is.

If it's not getting better, what's the point.

Especially if you're releasing like 5 albums in a row which are significantly lower even in your own rankings of your best work. Again, it's not that they SHOULD be better, but if the artist stops feeling their new album is better... then they have a pointless existence.

Kanye continued to put out better albums in most people's eyes right up until 808s, but then MBTF - most thought/think it's better than his first three.

If you're not doing that then you're not improving, so it's pointless.

It's not unrealistic. It's called ambition.

Most, like Jay, are happy to just keep existing, putting out shit for the sake of it.

[classthe_king]

Of course Jay-Z is content with putting out shit for the sake of it but I don't think he could make an album better than reasonable doubt if he tried just because people change. Everything you just said also applies to Eminem so is he lazy and is his music pointless and everything you else you're saying about Jay?

[classthe_king]

Of course Jay-Z is content with putting out shit for the sake of it but I don't think he could make an album better than reasonable doubt if he tried just because people change. Everything you just said also applies to Eminem so is he lazy and is his music pointless and everything you else you're saying about Jay?

No Em said he thought MMLP2 was a worthy successor. Paul also said in an in interview that Em knew people would hold it up next to the original and he said he didn't care. So..no

So…yes lol Even if em put MMLP2 at 4th that still be almost the exact same thing as Jay putting MCHG 5th

[EminemBase]

Of course Jay-Z is content with putting out shit for the sake of it but I don't think he could make an album better than reasonable doubt if he tried just because people change. Everything you just said also applies to Eminem so is he lazy and is his music pointless and everything you else you're saying about Jay?

Yep.

If he doesn't himself believe that what he's just made is better than his best shit or at least close, the exact same applies. It applies to anybody, no exception.

The only difference of course is that Em is still making top caliber rap music in terms of the skill and ethic put in to it. It genuinely does sound like he's trying to outrap his best shit, where as Jay doesn't.

[classthe_king]

EmBase was talking about ambition, and the ambition of an artist of trying to make his best work. Em knows MMLP is his best work, and he thought this was worthy of being the sequel. So no.

But it's still not close? Or if MMLP2 is considered close then MCHG also has to be considered close lol

Yep.

If he doesn't himself believe that what he's just made is better than his best shit or at least close, the exact same applies. It applies to anybody, no exception. It's a point.

Okay well I still think that's unrealistic. Not every album can be a classic and the fact that he put it 5th, right outside of his four "classics" shows that he still thought very highly of it and tried to make it good. He's just realistic enough to know he won't be able to top his old work. Like every artist 15 years into their career lol

The only difference of course is that Em is still making top caliber rap music in terms of the skill and ethic put in to it. It genuinely does sound like he's trying to outrap his best shit, where as Jay doesn't.

Well that's debatable lol

[EminemBase]

^ But Jay doesn't even sound like he's TRYING to top his own shit.

Sounds like he's totally fine with his raps and ideas being mediocre.

Rap-wise... Em at least sounds like he's trying to and in some instances IS outrapping his best shit. The only things which are worse are his ideas (his life is not as interesting) and the musical cohesion. But in terms of skill and passion, it still sounds like he's trying to top everything, all the time. Jay just sounds like 'meh, here's some more shit'.

If you look at say... "Bad Guy" or "Groundhog Day"... now, I'm not saying they are better than his best shit, but can you seriously deny the skill and effort put in to them? He SOUNDS like he's going for broke completely, he still sounds like a hungry and passionate lyricist.

Where as, can you seriously say the same about any recent Jay shit or like he's even trying?

[classthe_king]

On some songs he's certainly trying to match his old stuff.

Some songs he just wants to go over a dope beat and sound cool. There's nothing wrong with that. Every album doesn't have to be some creative masterpiece. Some rappers just want to make cool shit.

[EminemBase]

@classthe_king: That's boring and pointless as fug.

He has a platform and a voice and a chance to influence or affect culture or ideas on a huge level...

Would you waste that with 'cool shit'? That's so unambitious.

Tarantino is an example of an artist who almost never wastes his voice and uses each chance to try and make a creative masterpiece. There's also nothing wrong with that, and I think it's much better.

[classthe_king]

EmBase was talking about ambition, and the ambition of an artist of trying to make his best work. Em knows MMLP is his best work, and he thought this was worthy of being the sequel. So no.

But it's still not close? Or if MMLP2 is considered close then MCHG also has to be considered close lol

Absolutely not. You always try to make these equivalent statements. "Oh if you don't like___then you don't like___" "ok if ___is good than ___ is good". No. MMLP2 is a better album than MCHG. Just because one is close doesn't mean the other is. MCHG is not even in the same league as his older shit.

oh come on lol I'm not going to argue MCHG vs. MMLP2 but don't act like Eminem ranking MMLP2 4th isn't in the same league as Jay ranking MCHG 5th

@classthe_king: That's boring and pointless as fug.

He has a platform and a voice and a chance to influence or affect culture or ideas on a huge level...

Would you waste that with 'cool shit'? That's so unambitious.

Well I know this is a foreign concept to you but some people like to listen to music just because it's fun to listen to. You can say it's unambitious or whatever but try and look at it from the perspective of a normal human.

[Solace]

Class listen to this and join Fambino pls